Small Orthodox corner

[Sir Adrian]

Actually Peter chose Antioch. There is no evidence that he was ever in Rome and the idea itself did not appear until the 700s when the Pope started having dreams of secular power. It's like me saying in 2020 that Joan of Arc visited Dublin.

[enoch]

Actually Peter chose Antioch. There is no evidence that he was ever in Rome and the idea itself did not appear until the 700s when the Pope started having dreams of secular power. It's like me saying in 2020 that Joan of Arc visited Dublin.

If we are only counting Traditions for which contemporary evidence exists than most of the gospels, certainly the Bible (which has a similar hundreds of years later for secular power purposes origin), and even Jesus himself do not meet the criteria you put forward. But I acknowledge you are correct. As am I.

[alhoon]

Don't try and logic chop the Creator, if you believe in God then you believe God is beyond your puny reason (certainly they are beyond mine).

Agreed.
And I also agree that since God saves, it is up to Him to decide what is good enough.

[enoch]

God is unknowable. Any man who claims beyond faith to have proof or evidence or knowledge of Divinity’s purpose or expectations is a fool or a charlatan.

[alhoon]

Anyone who has read the Bible is familiar with the confession of Peter. Jesus directly states His church with be wherever Peter goes.

I think you are taking this quote too literally.

Peter chose Rome.

Did he now? Or is it something the popes claimed, twisting the meaning of words from the Bible, to gain legitimacy for their primacy?

The Church of Rome is the true Christian one. End of story. All the silly arguments aside this is directly from the Bible. It is not up for debate to Real Christians.

No, it is not from the Bible. It is from some interpretation of the Bible that frankly, I haven't heard before in my life.
Furthermore, I would also say that the Catholic Church that is based on Rome is not the real "Church of Rome". No Patriarchate is. Not the Catholic Pope, not the Ecumenical Patriarch nor any Patriarch.

[enoch]

I think you are taking this quote too literally.


Did he now? Or is it something the popes claimed, twisting the meaning of words from the Bible, to gain legitimacy for their primacy?


No, it is not from the Bible. It is from some interpretation of the Bible that frankly, I haven't heard before in my life.
Furthermore, I would also say that the Catholic Church that is based on Rome is not the real "Church of Rome". No Patriarchate is. Not the Catholic Pope, not the Ecumenical Patriarch nor any Patriarch.

All good points. After taking 3 seconds to approach this rationally it has become clear to me that anyone, anywhere, who claims there is proof there is a true religion or true Christianity dismissing all others is either a fool or a charlatan or worse and most likely, both.

[alhoon]

It is a matter of Faith, you cannot prove Faith or it stops being faith and becomes science.

[enoch]

Divinity is unknowable.

[basics]

enoch,

Yet divinity is the one thing you seem to appear to know most about or think you do. So, is there a God? Of course there is. Is He Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Of course He is. Are there any other gods? Only in the imagination of men. That's what is written but then you cannot see that, why? Because if you ever picked up a Bible and read it, all you can see is the dead letter of Scripture, not the living Word that it is.

[Hobbes]

It is a matter of Faith, you cannot prove Faith or it stops being faith and becomes science.

Faith is cool and all, no problem with my Faith-having peeps, but let's be real for a minute here and admit that the reason most people have Faith is because they were sort of forced into it when they were children with no critical thinking skills whatsoever. In a lot of cases it's also the State that enforces this as well *cough* Greece *cough*.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

enoch,

Yet divinity is the one thing you seem to appear to know most about or think you do. So, is there a God? Of course there is. Is He Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Of course He is. Are there any other gods? Only in the imagination of men. That's what is written but then you cannot see that, why? Because if you ever picked up a Bible and read it, all you can see is the dead letter of Scripture, not the living Word that it is.

The fundamental divide comes right here, frankly. What some see as living Word others will take as living Delerium to apply value to something that does not bring it inherently. Words that are interpreted to be more, not words that inherently offer themselves as more. If it does not 'speak' to people - which can often be argued as questionable as far as how given the human tendency towards all manner of mistruths taken to heart for their own edification - then they have no reason to buy it and every reason to see those that do as misguided and sometimes worse.

Unanswerable unless sufficient example is given to compel someone either way, and if there is one thing humans are brilliant at, it's getting things wrong or bending evidence to a comfortable narrative. So even with basic examples given there are credible sources of skepticism. This is not to convince you of anything, but hopefully demonstrate the problem of religious debate.

[enoch]

enoch,

Yet divinity is the one thing you seem to appear to know most about or think you do. So, is there a God? Of course there is. Is He Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Of course He is. Are there any other gods? Only in the imagination of men. That's what is written but then you cannot see that, why? Because if you ever picked up a Bible and read it, all you can see is the dead letter of Scripture, not the living Word that it is.

Suggest looking up the definition of unknowable. Also suggest not repeating this heresy about the Bible.

[basics]

Suggest looking up the definition of unknowable. Also suggest not repeating this heresy about the Bible.

enoch,

God is only unknowable to you because you wilfully deny Him. What is it about you that you appear to hate Him and anyone who does believe on Him?

[Sir Adrian]

God is unknowable because He is infinite and beyond the comprehension of the human mind. We can know the will of God through Sacred Tradition and doing works in His name but even that is God revealing himself as we flail about repeatedly failing to pick up His yoke.

If we are only counting Traditions for which contemporary evidence exists than most of the gospels, certainly the Bible (which has a similar hundreds of years later for secular power purposes origin), and even Jesus himself do not meet the criteria you put forward. But I acknowledge you are correct. As am I.

Please tell me that you did not compare the Bible (seriously, what is this western obsession with the Bible, it is not the be-all-end-all of Christianity) with someone being in some place. Whether or not someone visited a specific place is a matter of fact and relatively easily provable if the person was of any import. Miracles and the teachings of Jesus are a matter of faith and philosophy. Their very nature makes any evidence futile.

That being said there is archeological evidence that supports the accounts in the New Testament if you take into account the margin of error for the BC/AD system and that the accounts whitewash the involvement of Pontius Pilate on account of it not being a good idea to stir hatred of the romans during that time-period - see Massada as an example of why that is.


PS: the Bible was composed because at the time heresies were rising like mushrooms after the rain. It was created under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to help save souls from heresy by providing a unified reference material. Despite what friend Basics says, the Bible is NOT the most important part of the Christian or the main focus. It is just a part of Holy Tradition, which includes the unwritten teachings of Christ - Christ never wrote a single thing - and the apostles as well those of the fathers of the church. Claiming that the Bible exists for secular power shows a general lack of knowledge of Christianity.

[enoch]

God is unknowable because He is infinite and beyond the comprehension of the human mind. We can know the will of God through Sacred Tradition and works in His name but even that is God revealing himself as we flail about repeatedly failing to pick up His yoke.

Yes then No.

@basics I believe in Divinity

[basics]

Sir Adrian,

Now that is strange because it is recorded that Jesus wrote on the sandy ground something that made the howling mob very afraid that they dispersed very quickly after setting out to stone the woman caught in an adultrous act. If we believe John about nothing being created that was created but by Jesus Christ then was it not Christ Who carved the Ten Commandments on the two stones? If the Bible is not the word of God written by men totally inspired by God to be the Power of God concerning salvation where does anyone turn? What was the point of going out into all the world if it were just for the traditions of men? No my friends, Jesus said that, " not one jot or tittle," of what He said would ever be lost because it is all in the Bible. It is no coincidence that the KJV is the greatest published book of all time.

[Sir Adrian]

Sir Adrian,

If we believe John about nothing being created that was created but by Jesus Christ then was it not Christ Who carved the Ten Commandments on the two stones?

This is not true.

If the Bible is not the word of God written by men totally inspired by God to be the Power of God concerning salvation where does anyone turn

To Holy Tradition which is comprised of the scripture, the teachings of Christ, the Apostles, the fathers of the church. Saint Paul taught in Thessaloniki for 20 years yet the bible contains only a couple of letters. Should we just throw out everything he taught because it is not in the Bible? Of course not. The Bible is part of a greater whole, it is not the whole in an of itself.

What was the point of going out into all the world if it were just for the traditions of men? No my friends, Jesus said that, " not one jot or tittle," of what He said would ever be lost because it is all in the Bible. It is no coincidence that the KJV is the greatest published book of all time.

This is also not true and a misconstruction of what I said.

[Hobbes]

A good retort to your claims would be that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches were too much influenced by various Emperors and Popes, making many of their traditions wrong.

[alhoon]

@basics I believe in Divinity

Wait, what?! That got me by surprise.

[Sir Adrian]

A good retort to your claims would be that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches were too much influenced by various Emperors and Popes, making many of their traditions wrong.

Holy Tradition and secular traditions are not the same thing. Also what you said is just dumb given that Christianity was not limited to the Roman Empire starting with the 1st century AD