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Thread: Small Orthodox corner

  1. #241

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    You missed the point. I didn't say that Saints were supposed to be infallible. Alhon suggested that the Orthodox Church relies on a tradition agreed by a bunch of well-known theologians, which I contested, because the teachings of the cited figures are contradictory. By the way, Origen is not considered a saint in the Orthodox Church. He has gained this status only in a few Protestant Churches, like the German Evangelicals or (at a smaller extent) the Calvinists. In regards to the Orthodox Church, Origen's fate is not similar to that of Cyril of Alexandria, whose miaphysitism was suppressed and who is still venerated as a saint by the Orthodox Church. On the contrary, Origen and his work have been anathematised in the Fifth Ecumenical Council, which makes your comments on him a tad heretical, from the perspective of the Orthodox Church.

  2. #242
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    And you missed my point. It doesn't matter if the opinion on one topic are contradictory. Church fathers can be wrong. The tradition of the church was established via ecumenical councils and holy synods, not by individual appraisal. Besides the oppinion on Origen is not even part of tradition so your example is invalid from the start.

    You're right, Origen is only a church father. My mistake.
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  3. #243

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Then feel free to address your complaint to alhoon, who suggested that the Orthodox tradition relies on the most prominent theologians too. Also, the problem is not their opinion about Origen, but about his teachings, which is a fundamental part of the Three Holy Hierarchs' theology. Finally, Origen is not considered a Church Father either. He may have gained that status in Protestant churches and Pope Benedict XVI mentioned him as such (although this is not the official position of the Catholic Church), but, in the Orthodox Church, he remains an anathematised heretic. Neither sainthood nor fatherhood for him.

  4. #244
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Lets start with the basics.
    In order to understand Christian Faith you need to know hellenistic Greek langage well. Why? Because modern Israel and Palestine were under helenistic influnce for centuries before Romans (that continued ti use Hellenist Greek) came to region.
    Terms like Ortodox , Catholic had different meanings before 1054 than they have now.
    Catholic Church was the ENTIRE Chrisendom leading by the Apostolic Patriarchees. Rome, Alexandreia, Antiocheia, Jerusaleem.
    Orthodox term was first used in the end of the First Ecoumenical Counsil to destinquish the final commandments of the Official Faith against Heresies like Arianism and later Monofisism.
    Before 1054 officialy there was ONE Christian Faith. Ofcourse de facto there were many differences that came in to surfase with iconoclasm. Remember that despite the fact that RomeoCatholicism leading by the Pope of Rome now turned to sculptures it was a Pope that defended Holly Icons. About Holly fathers of Chisendom. The Three Ones sudly are not have been accepted by "modern" versions of the Christian Faith like Avangelicals because their teachings FORBITE the existance of "Prophets". About the nature of a Saint. As Saint we call the humble man that follows the Faith's teachings and way of life to that extend that that way of life becomes part of his existance.
    Now the one milion Dollars question. Do Saints or Holly Icaons make miracles?
    The answer lies in the degree of the Holly Icons restoration. "No Icon nore either object can be considered miraculus". ONLY GOD makes miracles and HE choses how, when with who and with what that miracle will performed. If you meet a real Saint the last thing that he will say is that he is unworthy too make miracles. That is because he choses to be humble in his connection to God. Modern Orthodox or modern Catholics use Saints to sell. That is a derail from the real faith. The worst are Evangelists that believe in modern Prophets. If you ask an Evangelist about the Letters of Apostole Pail he would say them but i doupt that he knows the real meaning of them. Angligans, Protestants , Catholics and a thousand more Christina Dogmas created after 1054! As Ortho-dogma we call the version of Christianity that the Ecoumenical Councils and the Holly Fathers created the fondamental rules of it. An example. In 4th Ecumanical Council The Ecumanical Patriarch recieved the duty to create new Churches in the eastern Europe and entire Asia. That authority was the reason that the modern Patriarch of New Rome (Constantinople) could apoint a new Church in Kiev because the rules of all Ecumanical Councils can not be changed. The "rebelion" of the Patriach of Moskow (remember that the Peter The Great moved the Patriarchee from Kiev to Moskow) is in the edge of herecy.
    EDIT: Sir Adrian ...Biblical is a fluid term. Bible is just a log book. The Rules of Christianity were created in teh first Ecoumenical Council. The "eastern" is also a fluid term. Apostole Thomas teached Christianity to India (that already existed trade Greek and Roman port colonies) and found his martyr death there. Eastern can not be mistaken with Slavic because those tribes were streched to the steppes.
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  5. #245
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Also, the problem is not their opinion about Origen, but about his teachings, which is a fundamental part of the Three Holy Hierarchs' theology. Finally, Origen is not considered a Church Father either.
    It's really isn't. Origen is a church father of the Orthodox Church. alhoon is free to be wrong if he wants to, all he said is opinion and there is nothing I can say to him that a simple chat to his priest cannot do better.
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  6. #246
    Alexander78's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    I don't find anything offensive in the posts posted here. I just pay attention to the fact that you need to be more precise in the wording. The term "Eastern religion" does not stand up to any criticism if we are talking about Orthodoxy. For me personally, this kind of formulation causes associations that are absolutely unrelated to Orthodoxy. Not resentment, but just misunderstanding, and as a result, a misconception in assessing what the interlocutor wanted to say.

    Now about the Moscow Patriarchate. In the light of recent events in Ukraine, which gained independence from Moscow in economic and political terms, the Orthodox Church was held hostage by a situation in which the schismatics of Ukraine began an ordinary war for parishioners and property. There can be no question of any faith there, everything is purely material and simple. The schismatic Filaret, anathematized, wanted to have his own church, independent of the Moscow Patriarchate. That is, if Ukraine is independent, then let it be independent in everything. Nonsense, if we talk about religion. It's the same if somewhere in Argentina, some cardinal declares that the Pope is not an authority for him and creates his own church, independent of the Vatican.

    In 2018, the then President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko, together with Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, implemented a project to legalize schismatics. At the "unification council" in Kiev, a new schismatic organization, the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, was formed from the UOC-KP, the UAOC and two bishops of the canonical Ukrainian Church who had deviated into schism. The Patriarch of Constantinople declared that he "removed the anathemas from the schismatics and restored them to dignity," in fact also deviating into schism. This act of simple raiding put the Ecumenical Patriarch in a very ambiguous position in the eyes of many vicars of Orthodox churches around the world. For the Moscow Patriarchate (the largest Orthodox center), Bartholomew became a non-handshake. To say that the Moscow Patriarchate has "rebelled" is to adhere to the point of view that the owner does not need to pursue thieves who have broken into his house.

    The most direct proof that schismatics are the simplest scammers is the fact that almost immediately after Barthalomew gave Filaret the right to create his own church, Filaret's accomplices (his closest associates) removed him from management. Filaret retained his dignity, but lost the right to manage all affairs and property, in other words, he was moved away from the trough for which everything was being started. This shame lies on all Orthodoxy, thanks to the Ukrainian schismatics.

    I want to emphasize once again that I may misinterpret some of the statements posted here by my esteemed brothers in Christ, so if you think that I am not entirely accurate in my answers to you, read the "Our Father" to yourself and forgive me this sin.

  7. #247
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    alhoon,

    [stuff]
    Do you agree or disagree that Mark 16:16 says "whomever is Baptized and believes will be Saved" or something similar?
    All the rest you say, is opinion, not in the scripture.

    "Therefore how does a baby go through this procedure to recognise how fallen he or she is? How does a baby know how deep its sin is. If immersion or sprinkling of water was enough why did Jesus have to spill His blood on that cross so that few ever get through that narrow gateway into heaven?"

    Baptism is one of the Mysteries. We don't know how it works. We will never be smart enough to understand how it works. The immersion you speak of, when done by an ordained priest (a person who, as a human, is also a sinner himself - no need for perfection) unites the kid with the Holy Spirit in a way we will never comprehend.
    Is this the only way to be baptized? I am honestly not sure; I am not a theologian. The Apostles were baptized with the tongues of fire. But I do know that the argument you provided doesn't align with what Mark 16:16 says.

    How we are Saved? By God's Grace.

    Why Jesus had to spill His blood on the cross? Because this huge sacrifice - and the subsequent resurrection - was required for our salvation.


    @Prodrome:
    Is basics' answer, which was essentially saying again what I answered to, a good explanation for you why at some point we stop indulging him?
    As you can see, I answered his question and basics was back with the same argument and a sermon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Saints in Orthodox Christianity are just people who are in heaven.
    Only two people are in heaven right now: Virgin Mary and the bandit that was crucified next to Jesus. The rest are awaiting judgement, having an (αρραβωνα) of their fate.
    Or better, that's what my priest told me and I believe my priest cause he has read a lot.
    I was shocked that Peter and Paul are not in heaven but a bandit is but then I figured how much magnality it shows by God that the first person to enter heaven, was that unnamed bandit that in his dying moments asked Jesus to remember him. The mother of God was assumed after the bandit died.

    Orthodox Christianity is not a religion, it is a spiritual how to guide for achieving salvation and living a pious life that is pleasing to God.
    Settra, that's a good description of Orthodox Christianity.
    BUT
    it is also a religion. A "How to" guide and a religion.

    That said: Both you and Abdulmecid mention this Origen fellow. I have never heard of him in my life.


    On the Russian Patriarch & Ukraine:
    Weeeeell... there is no difference in dogma between those two. They both believe the same things. And yet, a colleague of mine was stopped from attending an Orthodox Church in Poland. Why? Because it was under Russian priests and they didn't like Ukranians, like her. She was a baptized Orthodox Christian and she was refused service.

    Does that sound OK to you? Is that how a Christian should behave?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Before 1054 officialy there was ONE Christian Faith.
    Not really, no. Pre-Chalcidonians, Arians, Monophysites and other schismatics and heretics existed.
    I am not sure I would call Iconomachy as a heresy, to be honest. It had to do with how we expressed our faith, not the faith itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    "No Icon nore either object can be considered miraculus". ONLY GOD makes miracles and HE choses how, when with who and with what that miracle will performed. If you meet a real Saint the last thing that he will say is that he is unworthy too make miracles. That is because he choses to be humble in his connection to God.
    I don't think anyone here disagrees with that.

    The "rebelion" of the Patriach of Moskow (remember that the Peter The Great moved the Patriarchee from Kiev to Moskow) is in the edge of herecy.
    It is a butthole move, certainly not heresy. The Patriarch of Moscow and his flock do not disagree with the common and established beliefs of the Orthodox Church and they are in full communion with the rest of us.
    This power-posturing (quite unchristian if you want my opinion) has NOTHING to do with dogma and everything to do with politics. Politics are not faith.
    Same with the Patriarch of Antioch and his vendetta with the Patriarch of Alexandria over who holds sway over Qatar.
    Last edited by alhoon; November 22, 2021 at 04:45 PM.
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  8. #248
    Alexander78's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post

    On the Russian Patriarch & Ukraine:
    Weeeeell... there is no difference in dogma between those two. They both believe the same things. And yet, a colleague of mine was stopped from attending an Orthodox Church in Poland. Why? Because it was under Russian priests and they didn't like Ukranians, like her. She was a baptized Orthodox Christian and she was refused service.

    Does that sound OK to you? Is that how a Christian should behave?
    If this is true, then this is certainly an egregious case. No one should be denied divine service. And yes, this is not how Christians should behave. But let's not get distracted from the topic. It was about the schismatics and why Moscow "rebelled". I can give you dozens of examples when Christians were denied worship in different countries, and specifically because people were ethnically Russian. So what? Will you answer that? It's pointless. I want to tell you that Russians and Ukrainians are one people, temporarily divided by crazy politicians, nationalist bastards and schismatics of all stripes. And if you claim that Russian priests did not let a Ukrainian into the church, then such priests should be removed from the church and defrocked.

  9. #249
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander78 View Post
    It was about the schismatics and why Moscow "rebelled".
    Because of politics and not because of dogma. I.e. for the same reason the Patriarch of Antioch and Patriarch of Alexandria are not speaking.
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  10. #250
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Moscow didn't rebel though. Constantinople has overstepped time and time again and Moscow conceded again and again even where it didn't have to. There's no canonical right whatsoever for any patriarch to interfere in another patriarchate's jurisdiction, nor does Constantinople have any right to "revoke" the treaty from 1686. Nor is the canonical Ukrainian church in any way related to the Kiev Metropolites of old apart from having the capital in the same city.

    To make it abundantly clear: One reason for the great schism with the pope was the pope's claim to have absolute authority over everyone and everything. The patriarch of Constantinople, by claiming to have the right to seize parishes all over the world, is now essentially claiming to do the same thing. This didn't even start with Ukraine, even my former parish had a case with the Constantinople patriarchate back when I was a kid, for the simple reason that Constantinople is aggressively hunting parishes from other patriarchates to gain further revenue streams. There can be no unity with such an entity. This is not about money, or politics for me. I cannot call Bartholomew Dimitrios Arhondonis patriarch of a church I want to be a part of.

    When Constantinople claimed control of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, it immediately went ahead to depose bishops and impose orders which the Moscow Patriarchate does not lay claim to, as the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox church has almost complete autonomy from Moscow yet also has the right to have a say in the Patriarchate's matters. Even the other uncanonical Ukrainian churches didn't exactly welcome the intervention from Istanbul. The other heretic patriarch, who split from the Moscow Patriarch after getting angry because his candidacy to become the patriarch of Moscow failed, isn't exactly happy that Constantinople essentially granted him legitimacy only to immediately take it away from him.

    The parishes, monasteries and bishops have for the most part been quite unwilling to switch church just like that. The way parishes "switch" to the uncanonical new church is by force and there are numerous examples I can point to.

    To say it's politics is accurate and yet also underplays the gravity and immorality of it all and doesn't stop it from still being a dogmatic issue as the very act itself is in breach with fundamental principles of orthodox Christianity. Breaking the communion with Istanbul was thus long overdue.
    But yes the stunt was essentially Poroshenko's attempt to have at least a nominal victory for his reelection campaign. Hence why his aggressively nationalistic slogan was "Army. Language. Faith." The Army part referring to his continued attempts at shelling civilian urban centers into submission, and the language part to the nationalistic government forcing its language on all minorities, which alone should be enough to disqualify Ukraine from joining the EU. You can see by the election results how the majority of people see this issue. Poroshenko's church creation gained him votes where the Uniates (=catholics) are strongest, and he completely and utterly failed where the orthodox church is at its strongest. The church goes that are supposed to be part of the Istanbul construct overwhelmingly voted against the impostors.

    But the will of the majority doesn't really matter when the oligarchy and the most aggressive part of the population are intent on imposing their will on the rest of the population through authoritarian and often violent matters. Be it the Army and Language parts of his slogan, or the "Faith" part.


    Here's btw. Poroshenko and his family painted as saints in his own private church. Should tell you all about his aspirations.

    Same goes for the Constantinople patriarchate. Obviously it's "just" money and power for them. Constantinople did in fact get a fat check from Ukraine after that. Nevermind that the Istanbul patriarchate, as it should be called, is completely under control not only of the Turkish government, but also entirely dependent on the good will of the USA, which can at any point in time block the revenue stream Constantinople gets from believers abroad.

    But it isn't just politics to me, nor is it that for a huge chunk of the sees that are nominally part of the see of Constantinople. Be it the very reluctant monks in Athos or the Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox churches in Western Europe that broke with Istanbul over this and switched back to Moscow.

    And I will not accept the Turkish copy of pope Leo IX as part of my church either.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; November 23, 2021 at 03:33 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
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  11. #251
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    alhoon,

    No, the Scripture says, " Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved," Belief comes first and belief can only come by God for every part in the process of believing is by regenerating a heart that hates God by sinful nature. That is in Scripture. When John the Baptist immersed people he made the distinction between his water baptism from that which Jesus would do and that in the process of regeneration. John baptised people in preparation for the coming Messiah that they might be saved not by his water dipping rather the regeneration that Christ would be the very basis of their salvation. So, in regeneration we see God's grace in action. It is all of God.

    Further, you say quite mistakenly that there are only two people in heaven right now, Mary and the thief on the cross yet that is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus tells us of the poor and rich men, one in heaven in the arms of Abraham and the other sweltering in hell begging to be let out to warn his brothers. Paul writes that he would like to be with the Lord in heaven yet he still had work to do here on earth. We can also read of Moses and Elijah being present at the transfiguration and what about Enoch? Then of course there are all the souls crying out under the alter for Jesus to avenge them. Of course they are yet without their heavenly bodies as that event will take place at the final judgement when Jesus returns but nonetheless when a born again Christian dies he or she goes directly into heaven.

  12. #252
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    alhoon,

    No, the Scripture says, " Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved," Belief comes first and belief can only come by God for every part in the process of believing is by regenerating a heart that hates God by sinful nature. That is in Scripture.
    No, it isn't. What's in the scripture is " Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved,". The rest is your interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    When John the Baptist immersed people he made the distinction between his water baptism from that which Jesus would do and that in the process of regeneration.
    John the Baptist hasn't been ordained by a Bishop or Apostle nor received the Tongue of Fire. Thus, he couldn't do a baptism the way after-Christ priests could. That's why he is called Prodromos.

    Both of these two people you speak of are in parables. While I don't recall the passage for the one in the arms of Abraham, I do recall the one about the one wanting to warn his brothers. He was not in hell, he was in Hades, waiting judgement. The word "Hell" is not mentioned. Paul will be with Lord in Heaven after Judgement.


    "when a born again Christian dies he or she goes directly into heaven."
    Nope. He or she doesn't go directly to Heaven. It will happen after the 2nd coming.
    Last edited by alhoon; November 23, 2021 at 04:01 AM.
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  13. #253

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Because of politics and not because of dogma. I.e. for the same reason the Patriarch of Antioch and Patriarch of Alexandria are not speaking.
    Is there is a dispute between those two Patriarchates? Are you perhaps referring to John X's refusal to participate in the Council of Crete? His quarrel was not with Theodore II of Alexandria but with Theophilus III of Jerusalem, because the latter was grabbing the newly formed (but extremely lucrative) dioceses around the Persian Gulf, which nominally fell under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Antioch. Their relationship has since been improved considerably, as the situation in Syria stabilised and the Orthodox primates agreed for a negotiation about Qatar. Nowadays, most of the problems lie with the Russian-Ukrainian controversy. Theodore has allied with Bartholomew, but Theophilus has adopted a more ambivalent position. As a result, Alexandria doesn't speak with Moscow, which doesn't like Istanbul, which views Jerusalem with suspicion, which has offended Athens. Lovely situation. I wonder if Antioch will profit from it and try to bargain for a more advantageous deal, seizing a few straggler-parishes in the process.

  14. #254
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Oh right. Those two. The Patriarchs fighting over Qatar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Nowadays, most of the problems lie with the Russian-Ukrainian controversy. Theodore has allied with Bartholomew, but Theophilus has adopted a more ambivalent position. As a result, Alexandria doesn't speak with Moscow, which doesn't like Istanbul, which views Jerusalem with suspicion, which has offended Athens. Lovely situation. I wonder if Antioch will profit from it and try to bargain for a more advantageous deal, seizing a few straggler-parishes in the process.
    Those games of Patriarchal thrones is really unbecoming of Christianity. We already had a reputation as having a corrupt clergy. We don't have to prove it.
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  15. #255
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Oh right. Those two. The Patriarchs fighting over Qatar.



    Those games of Patriarchal thrones is really unbecoming of Christianity. We already had a reputation as having a corrupt clergy. We don't have to prove it.
    The other disputes, whilst petty, are minor, and they at least have that thing going for them where both sides have some legitimacy. None of them can compare to the Ukrainian issue in terms of gravity, breach of canon, and that issue is very much dominated by politics, even though it doesn't excuse the behaviour of the Istanbul pope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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  16. #256
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    The other disputes, whilst petty, are minor, and they at least have that thing going for them where both sides have some legitimacy. None of them can compare to the Ukrainian issue in terms of gravity, breach of canon, and that issue is very much dominated by politics, even though it doesn't excuse the behaviour of the Istanbul pope.
    Well, to be honest, I am absolutely sure the Patriarch of Constantinople would have an explanation. Including "Kiev was never Moscow's to give away" (perhaps) or "Why wasn't Cyril in the Ecumenical Council where the agenda included rearranging the patriarchates and archbishoprics, where he could even become the Ecumenical Patriarch?"

    What the explanation is, and whether I would agree with it more than with Cyril's explanation, I don't know.
    I haven't looked on the petty political disputes between the patriarchates and their weak arguments that are motivated by politics.
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  17. #257
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Well, to be honest, I am absolutely sure the Patriarch of Constantinople would have an explanation. Including "Kiev was never Moscow's to give away" (perhaps) or "Why wasn't Cyril in the Ecumenical Council where the agenda included rearranging the patriarchates and archbishoprics, where he could even become the Ecumenical Patriarch?"

    What the explanation is, and whether I would agree with it more than with Cyril's explanation, I don't know.
    I haven't looked on the petty political disputes between the patriarchates and their weak arguments that are motivated by politics.
    Nope, he doesn't have those arguments. He didn't have them in Estonia, Western Europe, etc. either.

    What the ecumenical patriarch is doing instead is repudiating the treaty from 1686, and stating that because of Constantinople's traditional honourary role as head of church, he has the right to interfere in other patriarchates internal matters. I am barely paraphrasing his arguments. They don't go much deeper than that.
    Problem number 1: Nowhere does it state he can do that. The treaty doesn't state anywhere that the transfer can be cancelled unilaterally, and canonical law clearly and firmly states that the orthodox churches are independent.
    Problem number 2: The modern day Ukrainian church is not related to the Metropolitan back then, except that the capital is in the same place.
    Problem number 3: If his actions were indeed to be allowed, this would give Constantinople the right to interfere basically anywhere and dissolve any Patriarchate (at least those that aren't part of the Pentarchy) by that very same reasoning.
    Problem number 4: This is precisely the reason why the East-West schism happened in the first place. If the supremacy of one patriarch over everyone else would have to be recognised, the most legitimate candidate for that wouldn't be the one in Constantinople, but Rome.

    The "humanitarian" claims made were likewise BS. If the Istanbul pope really had wanted to heal Ukraine he would not have acted according to the wishes of an oligarch who needed a win for reelection after robbing the country blind and leading the country further into ruin. He would not have added yet another uncanonical church to the mix. He would not tacitly endorse the takeover of parishes through violent means. He would not have interfered at all given the fact that no one in the canonical Ukrainian orthodox church had asked for it, and even the uncanonical self proclaimed "Patriarch" regretted it (once he realised that this meant he lost the title again, even though this had been the whole reason why he had split from the Moscow Patriarchate in the first place).

    The Istanbul pope's decision to do what he did is plainly immoral and done out of political reasons and greed. A schism is always a sad thing, but when someone does what he did I have no problem with what had to be done in response. I am not going to be part of a church that has this guy in it.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; November 23, 2021 at 10:11 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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  18. #258
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Kiev was granted to the Moscow Patriarchate temporarily until such a time as the people there desire autocephaly. Instead the Moscow Patriarchate has reneged on the treaty of 1686 and is forcibly trying to hold to lands it has no right to. The Moscow Patriarchate has no business forcibly subjugating the people of Ukraine and Moldova. If they do not want to be with you, you are not allowed to hold them hostage.


    It's the last vestige of tsars in Europe.
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  19. #259
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Kiev was granted to the Moscow Patriarchate temporarily until such a time as the people there desire autocephaly.
    Not even Istanbul is claiming such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Instead the Moscow Patriarchate has reneged on the treaty of 1686 and is forcibly trying to hold to lands it has no right to. The Moscow Patriarchate has no business forcibly subjugating the people of Ukraine and Moldova. If they do not want to be with you, you are not allowed to hold them hostage.
    If they didn't want to be with the Moscow Patriarchite, the regime and its far right lackeys would have no reason to take over churches by force. And yet they do, against the will of the local churchgoers. The Moscow Patriarchate is not "forcibly subjugating" anyone. The canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church has full autonomy plus it has a say in the matters of the Patriarchate as a whole. No one in the canonical church was asking for it. Feel free to show to me who in the canonical Ukrainian church was asking for it.

    You can read the original text of the synoidal letter as well as the preceding declarations from the patriarch of Constantinople in 1686 or the preschism literature on it yourself instead of making something up. The letters do not make any conditions, they directly and unequivocally state that the Kiev Metropolitanate is to be subject to the Moscow Patriarchate:
    Quote Originally Posted by Charter from Patriarch Dionysios IV (Constaninople) to Patriarch Ioakim (Moscow); May 1686
    И да отныне тая митрополия Киевская да будет подлежащи ко святому патриаршескому Московскому престолу
    And may henceforth the Metropolitanate of Kiev be subject to the holy patriarchal Moscow throne
    Quote Originally Posted by Charter from Patriarch Dionysios IV to the Ukrainian Hetman Ivan Samoylovych; May 1686
    Сего ради, и яко благословное и во всем праведно разсудиша быти обеими руками объяхом и печатными грамотами соборно утвердихом, се есть яко митрополия Киевская сия, якоже невозмогающу всегда превысочайшему и святейшему Вселенскому Костянтинополскому престолу хиротонисати, егда нужда случится, отпустителную грамоту дати, воеже хиротонисатися ради паче мерного места отстояния и ради приключившися посреди двух царств войны, быти подлежащей под святейшим патриаршеским великого и богоспасаемого града Москвы престолом.

    For this sake, and as if blessed and righteously judged in everything to be with both hands, embraced and by printed letters, conciliarly affirmed, behold, this is the Metropolitanate of Kiev, as ordained by the ever-highest and most holy Ecumenical Constantinopolian throne, [...] to be subject to the throne under the most holy patriarchal of the great and God-saved city of Moscow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charter from Patriarch Dionysios IV to the tsar; May 1686
    и митрополия Киевская сия да будет подлежати под святейшим патриаршеским Московским престолом
    καὶ ἡ Μητρόπολις αὕτη Κιόβου ἔστω ὑποκειμένη ὑπὸ τὸν Ἁγιώτατον Πατριαρχικὸν τῆς Μοσχοβίας θρόνον
    and the Metropolitanate of Kiev is to be under the throne of the holiest Patriarch on the Muscovite throne
    Quote Originally Posted by Charter from Patriarch Dionysios IV; June 1686
    покорство сей митрополии Киевской подложися под святейший Московский патриаршеский престол
    ἡ ὑποταγὴ τῆς μητροπόλεως ταύτης Κιόβου ἀνετέθη ὑπὸ τὸν ἁγιώτατον πατριαρχικὸν τῆς Μοσχοβίας θρόνον
    The allegiance of the of the Metropolite of Kiev is to be to the holiest Patriarch on the Muscovite Throne
    Quote Originally Posted by Synoidal letter from 1686
    повелеваем: да святейшая епархиа Киевская будет подлежащая ко святейшему патриаршескому престолу великого и богоспасаемого града Москвы

    ἡ μετριότης ἡμῶν … ἀποφαίνεται, ἵνα ἡ ἁγιωτάτη ἐπαρχία Κιόβου εἴη ὑποκειμένη ὑπὸ τοῦ ἁγιωτάτου πατριαρχικοῦ θρόνου τῆς Μεγάλης, καὶ θεοσώστου πόλεως Μοσχοβίας

    We rule that the most holy diocese of Kiev will be subject to the most holy patriarchal throne of the great and God-saved city of Moscow
    Not exactly subtle or unclear. Nowhere does it state that it is conditional or temporary, as you claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    It's the last vestige of tsars in Europe.
    It has nothing to do with the tsars but is at the very foundation of the orthodox church. The position you are shilling for literally gives Istanbul the right to lord over you and do with the Romanian Patriarchate whatever he wishes to. If he can do that with the Ukraine, he can do so with Romania too. Constantinople lost control over Romania far later than Kiev.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; November 23, 2021 at 12:27 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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  20. #260
    Alexander78's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Kiev was granted to the Moscow Patriarchate temporarily until such a time as the people there desire autocephaly. Instead the Moscow Patriarchate has reneged on the treaty of 1686 and is forcibly trying to hold to lands it has no right to. The Moscow Patriarchate has no business forcibly subjugating the people of Ukraine and Moldova. If they do not want to be with you, you are not allowed to hold them hostage.


    It's the last vestige of tsars in Europe.
    Really? You probably mean the treaty of "Eternal Peace"

    Eternal Peace— is a treaty between Russia and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, concluded on April 26 (May 6), 1686 in Moscow on the initiative of the Polish government. "Eternal Peace" confirmed the terms of the Andrusov Truce of 1667, finally securing for Russia the Left-Bank Ukraine with Kiev (for which the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth received compensation of 146 thousand rubles), Zaporozhye, Severshchina, Smolensk (with the surrounding area). It was decided to demarcate the unidentified sections of the border between the two States. The Russian government pledged to break the peace with the Ottoman Empire, send its troops to protect the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from the attack of the Tatars, and also encourage the Don Cossacks to organize a large campaign against the Crimean Khanate. Both sides pledged not to sign a separate peace with the Ottoman Empire during the upcoming hostilities. Freedom of religion was guaranteed for the Orthodox in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and recognition of Russia's right to their protection.

    The war with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was then waged, among other things, because of the oppression of Catholics and Uniates of the Orthodox. What are you talking about? What is the temporary transfer to the Moscow Patriarchate? People thanked God then for coming under the protection of Russian Orthodoxy. Everything is forgotten, even saving a life... The Moscow Patriarchate, and no other, has a very big deal to do with the Orthodox of Ukraine and Moldova, as well as other countries that are somehow in the orbit of the Russian Orthodox world. Russia at one time, saved many peoples professing Orthodoxy from complete destruction in the literal sense of the word. The countries that you named in your post would never have been formed if it weren't for Russia and some of its leaders, who are so disliked by the authorities of these countries at this hour.

    Russia saved Moldova from the Ottomans, the Zaporozhian Sich (then there was no mention of Ukraine) from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Tatars. But why did Russia take this step? In particular, because Orthodox Christians were oppressed there and representatives of these peoples asked Russia for help and protection. But that was in the past. Now the ruling circles in these countries prefer to conduct completely different conversations and conduct frankly dirty policy towards Russia. But time will put everything in its place.


    Cookie gave excellent information. But it is unlikely that opponents will take it. Sad
    Last edited by Alexander78; November 23, 2021 at 12:49 PM.

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