Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 170

Thread: Small Orthodox corner

  1. #61
    Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    lala
    Posts
    4,274

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Wait, what?! That got me by surprise.
    The supernatural encompasses so much. Being raised in a culture long dominated by a monotheist absolutist view of the Divine for me faith boils down to two questions and one fact:

    Does the universe have purpose? Yes, an irrational belief that I have faith is true nonetheless.

    Are the various and ever diversifying constructs provided by humans explaining that purpose easily disprovable? Yes, concluded rationally through thought.

    Divinity is unknowable.

  2. #62
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hobs Crk
    Posts
    10,676

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Holy tradition has been largely affected by Roman politics, to deny that is to deny history. To Protestants the Bible is a concrete basis cut off from all that.
    Last edited by Hobbes; May 13, 2021 at 03:04 PM.

    BLM - ANTIFA - A.C.A.B. - ANARCHY - ANTI-NATIONALISM

  3. #63
    Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    lala
    Posts
    4,274

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    Holy tradition has been largely affected by Roman politics, to deny that is to deny history. To Protestants the Bible is a concrete basis cut off from all that.
    Protestants thinking that thousands of years of Christian mostly Catholic thought and Bible translations by men whose lives and understanding were dominated by such thought and belief, can be cut of from the Church and societies they were born from is foolishness.

    Silly. Silly. Silly.

  4. #64
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nehekhara
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    Holy tradition has been largely affected by Roman politics, to deny that is to deny history. To Protestants the Bible is a concrete basis cut off from all that.
    That's demonstrably false unless you intend to claim that Jesus was a roman politician.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  5. #65
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hobs Crk
    Posts
    10,676

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    That's demonstrably false unless you intend to claim that Jesus was a roman politician.
    I don't recall Jesus calling ecumenical councils, speaking of heresy, defining liturgy or having any distinct position on paintings. Leo III and Irene of Athens on the other hand....
    Last edited by Hobbes; May 13, 2021 at 07:43 PM.

    BLM - ANTIFA - A.C.A.B. - ANARCHY - ANTI-NATIONALISM

  6. #66
    Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    lala
    Posts
    4,274

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    That's demonstrably false unless you intend to claim that Jesus was a roman politician.
    Sillier. No on Jesus. The people who compiled and edited the Bible however certainly were. And the breathe of mutating thought and practice that is actually Holy Tradition has little to nothing to do with Jesus.
    Last edited by enoch; May 13, 2021 at 08:07 PM.

  7. #67
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,976

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    The supernatural encompasses so much. Being raised in a culture long dominated by a monotheist absolutist view of the Divine for me faith boils down to two questions and one fact:

    Does the universe have purpose? Yes, an irrational belief that I have faith is true nonetheless.
    Are the various and ever diversifying constructs provided by humans explaining that purpose easily disprovable? Yes, concluded rationally through thought.
    Divinity is unknowable.
    enoch,

    The universe does have a purpose and no matter what man achieves in it does not disprove its existence in any way or the reason for its existence. Now concerning knowing God both Jesus and Paul have said things about that. Jesus said that His sheep know His voice which certainly alludes to communication one with the other, and Paul tells us that every man has a knowledge of God just by what he sees around him. Sin has brought about the willful denial of these things.

  8. #68
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hobs Crk
    Posts
    10,676

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    enoch,

    The universe does have a purpose and no matter what man achieves in it does not disprove its existence in any way or the reason for its existence. Now concerning knowing God both Jesus and Paul have said things about that. Jesus said that His sheep know His voice which certainly alludes to communication one with the other, and Paul tells us that every man has a knowledge of God just by what he sees around him. Sin has brought about the willful denial of these things.
    Um no, John the Apostle specifically says that the Savior revealed that it was Yaltabaoth who created the material world, going against the wishes of the Monad. This is Christianity 101, come on now.

    BLM - ANTIFA - A.C.A.B. - ANARCHY - ANTI-NATIONALISM

  9. #69
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nehekhara
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Engaging in low quality trolling is not a smart tactic.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  10. #70
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hobs Crk
    Posts
    10,676

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    If basics can reference Jesus and Paul, then surely I can reference John the Apostle.

    BLM - ANTIFA - A.C.A.B. - ANARCHY - ANTI-NATIONALISM

  11. #71
    Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    lala
    Posts
    4,274

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    enoch,

    The universe does have a purpose and no matter what man achieves in it does not disprove its existence in any way or the reason for its existence. Now concerning knowing God both Jesus and Paul have said things about that. Jesus said that His sheep know His voice which certainly alludes to communication one with the other, and Paul tells us that every man has a knowledge of God just by what he sees around him. Sin has brought about the willful denial of these things.

    Way outside of doctrine on this one basics.

    @adrian harsh dig on basics

  12. #72
    Cookiegod's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    4,002

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Imagine being so insecure about your belief system that you have to fight it all out in a small corner completely unrelated to you.

    Btw. basics with your idolatry argument you objectively failed to understand the whole point of that commandment or even what most people agree on with regards to Jesus.
    Unless you decided to be a monophysite, you have to admit to the human nature of Jesus Christ, against the depiction of which there's no commandment whatsoever.
    And if you were monophysite, you'd most likely be a member of an eastern church (which I know you're not), and I know plenty of Ethiopians, Armenians, Copts, etc. who have no issues with attending orthodox liturgies where they have no churches of their own, and vice versa.

    So your whole argument already dies there and then. But more importantly your interpretation shows that you haven't understood the whole point of that commandment at all, which is the anthropomorphisation of god. As long as you don't deny Christ having had a human body in its lifetime which was seen by everyone around him, there's absolutely no logic, none whatsoever, why depicting him should be haram.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie

    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  13. #73
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,976

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Cookiegod,

    Well when looking at Scripture where in any book is there the author's drawing or picture of Jesus? Why when reading each gospel not once does any of the disciples or other followers refer to Him as Jesus to His face? What is written is Rabbi, Teacher, Lord or Master but never a direct Jesus to His face. Christianity is built on what He did at the cross, not what He looked like. Is that important? Yes it is because Faith wouldn't be Faith if it were built on the imagination of men. Faith, true Faith, is believing that He died naked on a cross to shed blood for my sins as well as the sins of others. Remembrance of that comes each time we share the bread and wine, His body and blood given for us. Accepting my sin is gone is hard enough without adding to it by trying to wrongly depict God in all sorts of figurines and pictures.

  14. #74
    Cookiegod's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    4,002

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Well when looking at Scripture where in any book is there the author's drawing or picture of Jesus?
    Because unfortunately the comic book edition of the bible was lost to time.
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Why when reading each gospel not once does any of the disciples or other followers refer to Him as Jesus to His face?
    What's that got to do with the idolatry claim you made?
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    What is written is Rabbi, Teacher, Lord or Master but never a direct Jesus to His face.
    Your assumption of nonexistance on the grounds of absence of documentation is a very atheist way of thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Christianity is built on what He did at the cross, not what He looked like.
    And that supports how your idolatry claim?
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Is that important? Yes it is because Faith wouldn't be Faith if it were built on the imagination of men. Faith, true Faith, is believing that He died naked on a cross to shed blood for my sins as well as the sins of others.
    For one that's a very bleak and narrow view of faith, and secondly blatantly untrue. Your ability of believing something does not depend on whether or not you have seen a depiction of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Remembrance of that comes each time we share the bread and wine, His body and blood given for us.
    Again not in the slightest related to the idolatry claim you made.
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Accepting my sin is gone is hard enough without adding to it by trying to wrongly depict God in all sorts of figurines and pictures.
    How does that make it harder in any way?!
    Last edited by Cookiegod; May 15, 2021 at 08:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie

    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  15. #75
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Thessalonike Greece
    Posts
    22,483

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    My humble contribiution :

    Nottice where the monk says we use the same words Saints used in 1st century , 2nd century ..4th century...

  16. #76
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,976

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Cookiegod,

    The absence of any comic book descriptions are not there because they were never there. When writing their books the writers knew Who Jesus was/is and being guided by the Holy Spirit kept them away from anything that would appear idolatrous. There is nothing atheistic about that. The taking of the bread and wine is the way of remembering what He did at the cross. Of course these symbols were twisted as well by the introduction of transubstantiation which is also idolatrous. The Bible tells us that Faith is a gift from God imbued to the believer at his or her conversion. That is when that person is born again of the Spirit of God. But then that is the narrow path that Jesus talked of that leads to heaven. It's hard because my sin is ever before me when once it wasn't meaning that I being saved ask frequently, " Why me Lord? "

  17. #77
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hobs Crk
    Posts
    10,676

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    basics, I think you should read St John Damascene's Apologia to understand the Orthodox/Catholic position a bit better. As you may know the veneration of Holy Images was a very important topic that shook the Roman Empire during the middle ages. This conflict, that we now call the Iconoclasm, gave rise to a lot of debate, and I feel like you could profit from reading some of what St. John has to say.

    I believe in one supersubstantial being, one divine Godhead in three entities, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and I adore Him alone with the worship of latreia. I adore one God, one Godhead but three Persons, God the Father, God the Son made flesh, and God the Holy Ghost, one God. I do not adore creation more than the Creator, but I adore the creature created as I am, adopting creation freely and spontaneously that He might elevate our nature and make us partakers of His divine nature. Together with my Lord and King I worship Him clothed in the flesh, not as if it were a garment or He constituted a fourth person of the Trinity—God forbid. That flesh is divine, and endures after its assumption. Human nature was not lost in the Godhead, but just as the Word made flesh remained the Word, so flesh became the Word remaining flesh, becoming, rather, one with the Word through union (καθ’ ὑπόστασιν). Therefore I venture to draw an image of the invisible God, not as invisible, but as having become visible for our sakes through flesh and blood. I do not draw an image of the immortal Godhead. I paint the visible flesh of God, for it is impossible to represent a spirit (ψυχὴ), how much more God who gives breath to the spirit.
    You can read more here

    BLM - ANTIFA - A.C.A.B. - ANARCHY - ANTI-NATIONALISM

  18. #78
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nehekhara
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cookiegod,

    The absence of any comic book descriptions are not there because they were never there. When writing their books the writers knew Who Jesus was/is and being guided by the Holy Spirit kept them away from anything that would appear idolatrous. There is nothing atheistic about that. The taking of the bread and wine is the way of remembering what He did at the cross. Of course these symbols were twisted as well by the introduction of transubstantiation which is also idolatrous. The Bible tells us that Faith is a gift from God imbued to the believer at his or her conversion. That is when that person is born again of the Spirit of God. But then that is the narrow path that Jesus talked of that leads to heaven. It's hard because my sin is ever before me when once it wasn't meaning that I being saved ask frequently, " Why me Lord? "

    The only reason the bible does not contain images is because it was composed 3 centuries after the fact and the technique and paints required for creating books with picture did not yet exist. If Christ preached today He would be all over youtube, instagram and facebook
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  19. #79
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,976

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Hobbes,

    I've read some but not all of it and whilst I have no objection to make in general I still wouldn't try to depict Jesus in any shape or form, why? Apart from the commandment not to I have never seen Him displayed as described by the prophets. One night I got into bed, this being not long after my conversion, with my Bible across my chest. It was about 10.30. The next thing I knew was that I was up in the air in darkness moving towards what? I was frightened but that didn't seem to matter until I could dimly see a figure before me. It was at that point the head turned up towards me yet not me but past me and as the eyes opened as well as the mouth in movement I realised I was seeing the most frightenly horrific scene that made me squirm in horror. I was looking down on Jesus as He uttered His last words. The next thing I knew was bursting awake covered in sweat. It was now six o'clock in the morning. Still shaking I washed and left for work but not before going to the garage for petrol. When the guy at the garage saw me he remarked that I looked as though I had seen a ghost so I told him what had happened. His advice was to go and see the Pastor but I couldn't not until later that week.

    Along came Sunday when after the service a few would meet in the manse for coffee and chat. The subject of the crucifixion came up and I intervened with my experience a few days earlier. All the chat stopped as they listened finalised by the Pastor's wife saying that I had been given something from God to see. Perhaps it happened because I knew at that time very little about the crucifixion. My seeing that blackened figure covered by blood, sweat and dirt made me check it all out in the Scriptures and it was nothing like depicted by art in any form. Apart from that small gathering in the manse plus the garage guy I only ever told one more person what I saw until I told of it on these threads. There is no icon or painting that equals what I saw in those hours. No, not even the imagination of man.
    Last edited by basics; May 18, 2021 at 01:54 AM.

  20. #80
    Cookiegod's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    4,002

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    basics, I was a bit facetious. Obviously there are no images of Jesus in the bible, for the same reasons that there are no images in the bible of Augustus, Pontius Pilate, Alexander the Great, etc. From your reasoning we can deduct they should not be depicted either. The only "logical" deduction one can arrive at then is to forbid all pictures - period.

    This is the Wahhabi way of things, who, fun fact, got their style of Islam from Protestant missionaries.



    You very strongly commit the deadly sin of hubris, by deciding that centuries of liturgical tradition is to be cast out and your interpretation based on a flawed translation of the bible is the only right one. There is no logic whatsoever in prohibiting images of Jesus, unless one's a monophysite, which we know you're not. And by rejecting logic you reject god himself, since:
    Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie

    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •