Small Orthodox corner

[conon394]

I never said what you're implying, why? Because Jesus Christ is our Creator, He is God and if so He must have been there at Creation. Indeed John writes, " nothing that was made was not made but by Him." So, are you trying to tell us that Jesus Christ is not God or our Creator?

You are being illogical - you are inserting words into the OT that don't exist. The text is clear God is the sole creator, he has not split himself into some odd three part deity and Jesus in never mentioned.

"I say that Light was of and from Jesus Christ Who was creating all things at the time"

You say? Quite the arrogant assertion. In any case incorrect since in fact the plane text says god created the light (note not divided himself) so even under your logic you are wrong about creating all things.

why? Because as John tells us Jesus is our Creator and the Light of the world and is the One Who lights up the New Creation in which believers will live

Ahh ignoring even the NTs own admonition that it is full of allegory and parables on not to blandly seen as the literal truth all the time.


-----

So, are you trying to tell us that Jesus Christ is not God or our Creator?

Well theoretically the easy answer would seem to be yes since anyone who is not a Believer in the NT would say so.

[Loyt]

I never said what you're implying, why?

You never said, but John said. And we suppose to take Bible literally.

Because Jesus Christ is our Creator, He is God and if so He must have been there at Creation.

He is the light. If he has been there at creation, when where was no need for God to create the light. But Bible specifically says, what were was no light until God created it.

And you didn't answer again, have you agreed with my other points or just ignore them because have nothing to say?

So, are you trying to tell us that Jesus Christ is not God or our Creator?

Too bad Old Testament wasn't written by John too, right? No mention of Jesus the Creator there. Except...light? Creation of light.

[basics]

Loyt,

" In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth....." Elohim is a plural word giving us a clue as to the very Nature of God. He is One Being with Three distinct Personalities, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Each of Whom can function separately but never in opposition to One Another. The Father is as is written a Bright Shining Light upon Whom no man may look and live yet we are made in the image of God so what is that image? Well the clue to that is that Adam walked and talked with God in the garden and so it must have been Jesus in Whose image he was made and with Whom he walked and talked with, why? Because as the Old Testament unfolds Jesus appears as Melchizadec who conferred with Abraham, Who wrestled with Jacob and Whose hand chiselled out the Law on tablets of stone. The very same Jesus Who wrote on the ground at the attempted stoning of the woman caught in adultery.

Jesus Himself took the Old Testament Scriptures as being the Word of God so is that not literal enough? His presence among the people at the time was that He confirmed the prophecies about Himself and Israel to having been fulfilled by His presence. Was He lying? Surely you're not implying He was as no other person has performed the miracles He did nor proclaimed His Diety as He did to prove Him wrong ever since? Could it be that your opposition stems from the fact that you may be religious yet never born again of the Spirit of God Who makes the understanding of the Scriptures come alive rather than the way you see them? The Apostle Peter calls you mockers so was he lying too?

[conon394]

Loyt,

" In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth....." Elohim is a plural word giving us a clue as to the very Nature of God. He is One Being with Three distinct Personalities, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Each of Whom can function separately but never in opposition to One Another. The Father is as is written a Bright Shining Light upon Whom no man may look and live yet we are made in the image of God so what is that image? Well the clue to that is that Adam walked and talked with God in the garden and so it must have been Jesus in Whose image he was made and with Whom he walked and talked with, why? Because as the Old Testament unfolds Jesus appears as Melchizadec who conferred with Abraham, Who wrestled with Jacob and Whose hand chiselled out the Law on tablets of stone. The very same Jesus Who wrote on the ground at the attempted stoning of the woman caught in adultery.

Jesus Himself took the Old Testament Scriptures as being the Word of God so is that not literal enough? His presence among the people at the time was that He confirmed the prophecies about Himself and Israel to having been fulfilled by His presence. Was He lying? Surely you're not implying He was as no other person has performed the miracles He did nor proclaimed His Diety as He did to prove Him wrong ever since? Could it be that your opposition stems from the fact that you may be religious yet never born again of the Spirit of God Who makes the understanding of the Scriptures come alive rather than the way you see them? The Apostle Peter calls you mockers so was he lying too?

Your logic is circular. Essential I believe the NT to literary true. I believe the awkward construction of the the 3 part god of the NT as as I choose to believe it to be true therefore I will back fit that understanding into the OT where it is a ponderous retrofit.

Elohim is a plural word - this much is true. But there is no OT basis for your assumption. It may plural and is an artifact if how Hebrew describes Gods and Pantheons in the language. When used in the bible referring to the god of the Hebrews it is used in a singular context.

The Father is as is written a Bright Shining Light upon Whom no man may look and live yet we are made in the image of God so what is that image? Well the clue to that is that Adam walked and talked with God in the garden and so it must have been Jesus in Whose image he was made and with Whom he walked and talked with, why? Because as the Old Testament unfolds Jesus appears as Melchizadec who conferred with Abraham, Who wrestled with Jacob and Whose hand chiselled out the Law on tablets of stone. The very same Jesus Who wrote on the ground at the attempted stoning of the woman caught in adultery.

That's non sensical god can clearly appear as he will and it is clear he not Jesus waked with Adam in the text. and its in his own image he made both adma and eve - thus of course his image is whatever he wants male or female for example.

Jesus Himself took the Old Testament Scriptures as being the Word of God so is that not literal enough?

Did he Idunno - you don't you what people who never met him say he said.

His presence among the people at the time was that He confirmed the prophecies about Himself and Israel to having been fulfilled by His presence.

Its kind of of easy to back fulling prophecies onto a text. The NT kind of misses badly with the timing of the second coming so not a good track record on that sort of thing and not agreeing on the guys supposed date of birth leads to question if they accuracy.

Was He lying? Surely you're not implying He was as no other person has performed the miracles He did nor proclaimed His Diety as He did to prove Him wrong ever since?

Who know on the lying and miracles all we have is the clearly unreliable gospels to say one or the other. Let's be clear you out of hand dismiss the ideal that the prophet Mohammed was delivered the word of god by an angle so sure the NT is equally made up.

The Apostle Peter calls you mockers so was he lying too?

Yes because born again is a rather forced translation of several of the passage you want to use.

[basics]

conon394,

I believe what I have written because of my experience with God corroborated by the Bible. There was a time, if I had been interested enough, I might have joined you with your arguments but alas, now I know different because God Himself has shown me how wrong I had been in His eyes and my mind. It really is so sad to read your posts but never mind I will keep praying that one day you will see the Light.

[conon394]

conon394,

I believe what I have written because of my experience with God corroborated by the Bible. There was a time, if I had been interested enough, I might have joined you with your arguments but alas, now I know different because God Himself has shown me how wrong I had been in His eyes and my mind. It really is so sad to read your posts but never mind I will keep praying that one day you will see the Light.

I think in many ways you precive my arguments the wrong way. I do not question your personal spiritual event. Obviously I cannot and you certainty found it moving and life altering. What I am sorry about is that you than seem to have then walked into a very uncritical Calvinist understanding of the Bible that I think not sustainable and made up of a lot paste.

[basics]

conon394,

After some forty years now reading and listening to what the Bible and preachers have said there is no doubt in my mind that what the world is going through now has already been written in the heavens by God. God would not be Sovereign if it were otherwise.

[conon394]

conon394,

After some forty years now reading and listening to what the Bible and preachers have said there is no doubt in my mind that what the world is going through now has already been written in the heavens by God. God would not be Sovereign if it were otherwise.

Actually your latter point does not follow logically. There is no reason that god could not choose to let things play out with free in the world he created. Certainly I think you study of the Bible (and potential Bibles) is poor and you have reached conclusions that are not supported by the text and you just ignore issues with the current text. Most certainly he never cursed all of humanity and world in perpetuity for the sins of a couple people unless you believe in Manicheism

[basics]

Actually your latter point does not follow logically. There is no reason that god could not choose to let things play out with free in the world he created. Certainly I think you study of the Bible (and potential Bibles) is poor and you have reached conclusions that are not supported by the text and you just ignore issues with the current text. Most certainly he never cursed all of humanity and world in perpetuity for the sins of a couple people unless you believe in Manicheism

conon394,

As I have written on many occasions Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden but why? The garden was a picture of heaven and they had just sinned so they couldn't remain in it. So being cast out any offspring that they had were like them outside and incapable of entering. The curse was on them too and so that applied to the subsequent peoples that would populate the earth as all were cut off from God. The good news is however that when in the garden before being expelled God told them of a " seed " of Eve would come to contend with satan and sin for the souls of men which happened when Jesus Christ came into the world as a man. What's so difficult about that?

[conon394]

As I have written on many occasions Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden but why?

The bible is explicate as to why...

The garden was a picture of heaven

OT makes no such assertion

and they had just sinned so they couldn't remain in it

Not what the text says it says they are ejected to prevent a second sin

So being cast out any offspring that they had were like them outside and incapable of entering

Of entering the Garden again, yes.

The curse was on them too and so that applied to the subsequent peoples that would populate the earth as all were cut off from God

Again not in the OT

The good news is however that when in the garden before being expelled God told them of a " seed " of Eve would come to contend with satan and sin for the souls of men which happened when Jesus Christ came into the world as a man

Willful misreading of the text and most of what said is simply made up

What's so difficult about that?

The majority that is not in the text and made up.

[basics]

conon394,

Sorry but you need to get a Bible and read it asking for God's help in understanding it.

[conon394]

conon394,

Sorry but you need to get a Bible and read it asking for God's help in understanding it.

I have several thank you.

"understanding it"


If by that mean just making stuff up - that exists nowhere in the OT? I guess you can claim gods help in that basics but just ignoring the simple meaning of the text, ignoring why Eve and company were tossed out, accepting made up Manichaeism original sin and the fallen world, willfully misreading the obvious meaning of the seed bit - I submit you sir are the one who needs help.

[basics]

conon394,

In the garden Adam and Eve enjoyed the company of not only God but of all the creatures that God made. It was a place of pure peace and serenity or as I put it a figure of what heaven will be like. There was no death or disease and God saw that it was good. Why no-one knew what death was until the serpent persuaded Eve that God didn't mean what He said. So, on eating the fruit and persuading Adam to do the same suddenly they realised they were naked meaning not only without a covering but naked of any excuses for disobeying God never mind disbelieving Him. So, what did they do? Why they tried to pass the blame onto each other and so in doing so they only added to their sin and shame. By their own folly they became immediately condemned and had to be put out of the garden never to return but worse still carrying the curse which must be passed on to their offspring. From that we know the origin of sin.

[conon394]

In the garden Adam and Eve enjoyed the company of not only God but of all the creatures that God made.

So far so good that is a fair accurate summary of the text.

It was a place of pure peace and serenity or as I put it a figure of what heaven will be like

Again you start OK but your ending is something you are implying and is not part of the text of V2.0 creation story.

There was no death or disease and God saw that it was good

You are assuming no death. And if all animals were made as they are than there was of course a lot of death since predators got to eat.

Why no-one knew what death was until the serpent persuaded Eve that God didn't mean what He said

You are assuming that and the text itself contradicts you. Else God's threat/warning to Adam is nonsensical if he does not know what death is. Its good and evil and seemly shame he and Eve did not understand.

So, what did they do? Why they tried to pass the blame onto each other and so in doing so they only added to their sin and shame. By their own folly they became immediately condemned and had to be put out of the garden never to return

Umm no

3: 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

They are tossed out of the garden to prevent them from making a go at the second tree.

but worse still carrying the curse which must be passed on to their offspring

While indeed both Adman and eve and the serpent received individual penalties of which there descendants are part of - It demonstrably not Calvinist original sin for themselves and all creation - that you are just making up (or rather Augustine made it up for you to believe in).


I also like how we get are allegorical jab at farming over vs pastoralism. Farming is explicitly made hard, and god personally supersedes Adam and Evens own clothing (made from the stuff of settled farmers) with animal skins. Obviously this is made even more explicit with the Cain and Able story. But point made now already stay in the tents boy them city folk is foreign and wicked. Also oddly if your view of the Garden is correct skins for clothing make god do the first killing in the Garden was infected with original sin? Did he create a cure he had to follow?

[basics]

conon394,

If the garden was not a figure of heaven why was everything put out and the garden removed? So, what is the tree of life and why weren't they allowed to grasp it and live? The answer you gave yourself in that had they done so they wouldn't have died but live on forever. No, they sinned and were put out meaning that for them and their offspring they would need a Saviour to pay for their sin and so before sinning had they grasped that tree they would still be there.

Every bird, fish, animal and human were provided with fruit and herbs to fill their bellies and so there was no death in the garden. It was after their expulsion that these creatures turned on each other bringing meat and blood into their diets. Meat as you should know is not an essential for humans even today.

So, the first sin was made by Adam and Eve and being the first sin it must be the original sin because it is the origin of sin. Surely even you can see that?

[conon394]

If the garden was not a figure of heaven why was everything put out and the garden removed?

Well presumably because you just made that up. Adam and Eve were put out of it. It was then put under guard - not removed. Nothing else is said to be ejected from it - except for Adam Eve for the fear of them committing a second sin. Also it worth pointing out the Garden does not even figure in V1.0 of creation.

So, what is the tree of life and why weren't they allowed to grasp it and live?

I assume exactly what the text says and they were not allowed because god did not want them to eat from it. Seems pretty clear.

The answer you gave yourself in that had they done so they wouldn't have died but live on forever.

Not me I simply quoted the Bible you claim to have read and believe is the literal truth.

No, they sinned and were put out meaning that for them and their offspring they would need a Saviour to pay for their sin and so before sinning had they grasped that tree they would still be there.

Err you just made that up - or no again Augustine did and you just believe it without any thought or consideration of what other Christians of his time thought and who correctly recognized him as corrupting the faith with Manichaeism.

Every bird, fish, animal and human were provided with fruit and herbs to fill their bellies and so there was no death in the garden.

Making stuff up again I see.

It was after their expulsion that these creatures turned on each other bringing meat and blood into their diets.

Just more making stuff up

Meat as you should know is not an essential for humans even today.

I never said it was for humans. But if as you claim all animals were made as they are it was a large number of them.

So, the first sin was made by Adam and Eve and being the first sin it must be the original sin because it is the origin of sin. Surely even you can see that?

Well there is two ways to look at this.

If as you have claimed all things have gone according to god's will since before the bible and there is no free will. I admit that is a paraphrase but if I scan back enough I am sure I can round up a quote. Ahh I did see #722. Thus without free will there can not be sin. So no I surely don't see it under those terms.

But if you are willing to accept the internal logic of the OT as it is written than yes Eve and dullard husband Adam did commit a sin and its the first we are informed of in the text. So yes Grammatically it is within the Bible's world the original sin. On that I would agree. However I don't agree that there is any support for what you mean when you say original sin. That is made up out of whole cloth. The original sin in the OT led to specific punishments for Adam and Eve and the serpent. Nothing else. And supporting free will god's worry that they would sin again with the tree of life led to the additional penalty (again if everything moves to gods plan why does She/He/It have a worried aside on this?) they are tossed from the garden. But nope nothing to sustain your Augustine invented fallen world original sin.

[basics]

conon394,

You still don't get it do you? We exist because God made it so and He made it so that He would always be the Central Character in it. It's what we would call a crime story, us being the criminals and Him being the Saviour Who would save certain people from a punishment they never deserved to be saved from. The garden was never there during the six days of creation, why? Because in the story this creation would be doomed to destruction and so the garden being a shadow of heaven was created speparately from the rest and into which He made man and woman quite innocent to begin with yet flawed in that they were to fall persuaded by another power who is the enemy of God.

So the picture was set that man would fall and be cast out of that heavenly place, his nature changed and by that it meant every evil was possible for him to do without any consequences. So death entered his world without thought or favour for not one thing didn't have an enemy that could destroy him. All creation found itself in the very same situation. And so we read that things got so bad that for the sake of man a Hero would come, that Hero being the Lord Jesus Christ, our Creator, to pay the price that Justice demanded for our sin. All those born before then and counted to be saved were held by God as being righteous before Him and so their sin was cleansed at the same Sacrifice Jesus would make on their behalf. They lived by Faith just as those born after the crucifixion would have to live and all that a gift from God.

The picture being set and rolling out over the centuries it is quite clear that man has no answer to why he is such a sinner and why should he when sin is so good? He doesn't want to know that there are consequences or that his future lies in them because he thinks that he is the master of his own destiny. It has got to the stage where man is no longer man or woman no longer woman for they can be anything they like with the rest of the world too scared to address the issue. As for abortion we see millions of unborn children torn apart as they are pulled away from their mother's wombs and the world sits back doing nothing about it anymore. We see science mess around with genetics which only recently caused the greatest panic seen in this world for a long time and it is still going on as Covid has not been eliminated at all.

This is all a result of the fall of Adam and Eve and yet still you cannot see it and in reality don't want to. The answer is simple, " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..." One day He will appear like the 7th Cavalry to beat off the baddies once and for all and all that live and have ever lived will see Him in His Majesty, the Hero of our existence.

[conon394]

You still don't get it do you? We exist because God made it so and He made it so that He would always be the Central Character in it. It's what we would call a crime story, us being the criminals and Him being the Saviour Who would save certain people from a punishment they never deserved to be saved from. The garden was never there during the six days of creation, why? Because in the story this creation would be doomed to destruction and so the garden being a shadow of heaven was created speparately from the rest and into which He made man and woman quite innocent to begin with yet flawed in that they were to fall persuaded by another power who is the enemy of God.

You cannot help yourself with the Manichean Dualism can you. Its a nice story you tell but its for example not Christianity as Julian of Eclanum would seen it and the bulk of it is in fact just made or assumed and not in the text of the OT.

[basics]

conon394,

I see it as God has given me to see it and what He gave me to see has turned my life around and further every time I read my Bible He gives me further insight to what and why it is written.

[conon394]

conon394,

I see it as God has given me to see it and what He gave me to see has turned my life around and further every time I read my Bible He gives me further insight to what and why it is written.

A statement of faith. But of course again something a Catholic or Hindu or Muslim could as well and be equally earnest and honest.