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Thread: Small Orthodox corner

  1. #621
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    So, where did the sin that we can see everywhere come from if not by Adam and Eve?
    People's own free will decisions.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #622
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    People's own free will decisions.
    conon394,

    So people all sin because they decided to rather than by their nature?

  3. #623
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Again people have free will to act as might. That being said both genetic and environment may predispose people to say additive behavior and that can lead to kinds of negative consequences for. But sin as some kind of moral state inhered from Eve and Adam. No I don't believe that story to be true nor hold to concept of sin (in specific sense of violating the word or laws of god) . And I also assert the Paul/Augustin/Calvin view you have is compatable with the simple text of the OT.
    Last edited by conon394; June 22, 2022 at 08:01 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #624
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    conon394,

    Paul was an expert in the Law of God being taught by the great Gamaliel yet what he knew was debunked the moment Jesus Christ put him on his knees to reveal Himself to him. The one thing though that never changed was as a devout Jew and then Christian was that sin was universal, none were exempt from it and that thanks to Adam and Eve. Christianity didn't begin with Paul, it began when God accounted Abel righteous before Himself. The sad thing is that you can't see this.

  5. #625
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    none were exempt from it and that thanks to Adam and Eve. Christianity didn't begin with Paul, it began when God accounted Abel righteous before Himself. The sad thing is that you can't see this.
    Nothing in the OT says people are born into sin thay have the free will potential to commit it and free will to follow the laws of god and also ask for forgiveness. So if Abel is Righteous guess he did not need Jesus.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  6. #626
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    conon394,

    God accounted Abel righteous before Him because Abel made a lamb his offering, this pointing to Jesus Christ Who would one day clear his account as his Saviour. All the Old Testament saints held that same promise from God.

  7. #627
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    God accounted Abel righteous before Him because Abel made a lamb his offering, this pointing to Jesus Christ Who would one day clear his account as his Saviour. All the Old Testament saints held that same promise from God.
    That is a mishmash understanding of the OT from a desire to wedge Jesus into it. Abel is in good with for his actions and does not require backing Jesus into the story. Its almost like he had free will was not suffering from Augustine original sin at birth huh?
    Last edited by conon394; June 28, 2022 at 06:21 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #628
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    conon394,

    God put to Abel's account that he was righteous before God when in fact he wasn't. He was unrighteous because he was born a sinner just like Cain but God covered his sin on account that the blood of Jesus Christ would cleanse him of that sin all these years later. That was the case for all the Old Testament saints, how? Well it is written that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was a once only sacrifice ordained before the worlds were made and accomplished in due course.

  9. #629
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    He was born a sinner there is generalized original fall of man in in the OT.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #630
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    conon394,

    If he wasn't a sinner why did God put to his account the righteousness of God?

  11. #631
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    If he wasn't a sinner why did God put to his account the righteousness of God?
    And you get this from where?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #632
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    conon394,

    Try Genesis 4:1-8.

  13. #633
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Try Genesis 4:1-8.
    Which actually does nothing to support your case. In fact Cain is specifically told by god to avoid being a sinner. In any case aside from showing god to be capacious again I not sure what you are getting at.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #634
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    conon394,

    Cain killed Abel because God preferred him. Abel was made righteous by God so what does that mean? What does it mean for someone to be righteous?

    1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin. 2a : morally right or justifiable a righteous decision. b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality righteous indignation.

    Both were born sinners but God chose Abel to be free of his sin and so Cain killed him out of jealousy. Therefore why did God warn Cain about sin?

  15. #635
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Both were born sinners but God chose Abel to be free of his sin and so Cain killed him out of jealousy. Therefore why did God warn Cain about sin?
    Because neither were born sinners. Cain made his own choice. Still sure where are you are the righteous stuff from in the text.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #636
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    conon394,

    Well puting your argument in place why was it that they were not born in the garden? If they had been and not sided with their father and mother they would still be there. The thing is that Adam and Eve carried the curse of sin into the world when cast out and that sin was inherited by Cain and Abel the moment they were conceived. So, what made Cain choose to murder his brother? Simply put the same jealousy that is inherent in us all beginning in our early years as siblings. Of course we don't all murder but we certainly can do other despicable things to get at our target. God chose Abel over Cain and Cain hated the very idea which ground away at him until he broke and killed Abel. These things have been going on in the history of the world nonstop because anyone that God favours can expect opposition of all sorts so nothing's changed.

  17. #637
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Well puting your argument in place why was it that they were not born in the garden?
    I didn't make the story up. Genesis has only a tenuous sense of time and sense of place although its clearly in the world, a lot of incoherence and no real caring about numbers of children or naming daughters etc...

    If they had been and not sided with their father and mother they would still be there
    I can't see how you reach that conclusion god is afraid for the tree of life and locks down Eden.

    The thing is that Adam and Eve carried the curse of sin into the world when cast out and that sin was inherited by Cain and Abel the moment they were conceived
    Back to making stuff up not in the text.

    So, what made Cain choose to murder his brother? Simply put the same jealousy that is inherent in us all beginning in our early years as siblings. Of course we don't all murder but we certainly can do other despicable things to get at our target
    Starting to wonder on your family upbringing. In any case Cain's jealousy is the direct result of gods actions.

    God chose Abel over Cain and Cain hated the very idea which ground away at him until he broke and killed Abel. These things have been going on in the history of the world nonstop because anyone that God favours can expect opposition of all sorts so nothing's changed.
    So we are back to capricious god and free will and no original sin as blood attainder.
    Last edited by conon394; July 02, 2022 at 06:04 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #638
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    I have no kids, but even i know, its a sign of being a bad parent to favour/love one child more...
    Born to a flock of animosity
    To be judged, to be shamed, no rights and no dignity
    Beneath the eye of disdain
    Where the watcher sees the wicked, we compel



  19. #639
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    I have no kids, but even i know, its a sign of being a bad parent to favour/love one child more...
    Well in this case it clearly intentional allegory as part of the myth - pastoral living better than city life. Not really sure it speaks at all to human family relations/parenting.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #640
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    I have no kids, but even i know, its a sign of being a bad parent to favour/love one child more...
    Morticia Iunia Bruti,

    Having no children yourself then you'll not know how easy it is to have to be a judge when disciplining children. It's a natural thing to have sibling rivalry in any family and is the general case from my experience of life that daughters tend towards their dads and boys towards their mothers. So favouritism can go both ways as can jealousy therefore i would say that anyone who claims never to have been jealous of another is telling porkies.

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