Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Jerusalem and Cyprus

[lambur98]

Will those units be featured in the February update?

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Will those units be featured in the February update?

Yes! Though I have made a few aesthetic changes to them from how they look here.

[lambur98]

Yes! Though I have made a few aesthetic changes to them from how they look here.

Geat ! in fact i am asking that question because KJC is not one of the country that will receive new units according to the February update announcement. Anyway Great news !

[Faman]

I think it would be very nice to see a the one cross unit or general for the crusaders. And as castille have don you can add Arn and his Norwegien seargent to them aswell

[Imperator Karl franz IV SIGMA]

still my most favored kingdom for multiplayer

[Commissar Caligula_]

Why's the Master of the Temple (Late) got a bowler hat?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[AugustusMaximus]

These units look AMAZING. Excellent work!

However...

Does anyone else think that the Arab factions should look more like this? They look way more primitive and exaggerated in terms of their aesthetic, especially with all that misplaced Turkish style armor.

Also, I noticed some pretty heavy plate armor on some of these guys. For example, the T2 and T3 Crusader Auxiliaries. I'm confident that such armor didn't even exist during the Crusades. At least, the Kingdom of Jerusalem didn't exist in a time frame where it would've had access to them. They look cool, but it's historically inaccurate.

[marmalade]

Also, I noticed some pretty heavy plate armor on some of these guys. For example, the T2 and T3 Crusader Auxiliaries. I'm confident that such armor didn't even exist during the Crusades. At least, the Kingdom of Jerusalem didn't exist in a time frame where it would've had access to them. They look cool, but it's historically inaccurate.

Well... yeah? I mean, what if they do survive beyond their historical time frame? Are they supposed to just keep wearing tier 1 armor while everyone else gets new stuff?

Also the Kingdom of Cyprus survived well into the 14th and 15th centuries, which this faction sorta represents as well.

[Danishmend]

They look way more primitive and exaggerated in terms of their aesthetic, especially with all that misplaced Turkish style armor.

The Nihayat al-Su'l (a manual on chivalry and knighthood, as well as their training in the Muslim world) by Muhammad ibn 'Isa al-Hanafi al-Aqsara'i makes it clear that Arab Egyptian and Arab Levantine soldiers wore mainly mail and plated mail in the 1200's (more similar to the soldiers in the Kingdom of Jerusalem's roster) than the type of armor they're wearing in this picture.

The Ayyubid cavalry consisted mostly of Turks and Kurds.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[AugustusMaximus]

Both of you are correct in this assertion. Many Ayyubid cavalrymen were of Turkish origin. However, the assumption is being made that it naturally follows they wore Turkish armor. This is false. Only a minority of Ayyubid and Mamluke soldiers actually wore the lamellar armor they're often depicted wearing, as they are in this mod, during the 12th and 13th centuries. Furthermore, even Turkish armies south of Anatolia abandoned traditionally Turkish armor in favor of much more Arab-style armor. This can be seen in this source:



Notice how it says Mu'izz al Din "led a cavalry force armed with long lances and swords, wearing full-length mail hauberks and perhaps segmented helmets with plumes or crests." The Arab fashion they adopted is clearly much more reminiscent of the Crusaders themselves (and it should be noted that the Crusaders States gradually adopted more Arab, Byzantine, and other local styles, such as turbans, lightly colored coats over their armor, and lamellar). Also, the segmented helmets are also another example of Arab armor. The Arabs had used conical segmented helmets since the very early Medieval Ages, both nasal and non-nasal ones, such as these:


This second picture is actually of Nur ad-Din, the famous (Turkish) Zengid ruler. It's no coincidence he's wearing an Arab style helmet here rather than a Turkish one, because the Zengids were further south from Anatolia.

Hence, an actual typical Ayyubid soldier during this time period would've looked much more like this. He has the correct chain mail armor and helmet, as well as a much more realistic cloak over the armor, compared to the extremely over-stylized ones we tend to see with Western depictions of medieval Arab armies.


Speaking of over-stylized clothing, the main reason we see Islamic soldier depicted with those so often is more than likely because of this:



The Crusader chroniclers overemphasis of the Turcomen in Ayyubid armies obviously led to the stereotype in the Christian European mind thatthis is how Arab and Muslim soldiers dress. Extremely light with tons of colors and designs. It didn't help that they mainly served in the auxiliary as well, meaning they would often be the first thing of the army that the Crusaders would see.

Also, I think its worth mentioning why Arab armor would be so prevalent over Turkish armor in Ayyubid armies. This was mainly because of the Iqta' system, as described by esteemed Islamic historian Sato Tsugitaka here:



Similarly to the feudal systems of Western Europe, when the King would declare war, the muqta', who would typically be Emir's (Arabic for Lords), would have to gather the peasants and other men of the iqta' to lead them in war, while also helping supply and pay for their armor. Considering that most of the armor produced in the Dominions of the Ayyubid Sultanate in this time period was by Arabs, armors of the Arab style, as shown in the image of the soldier above, were much more mass produced compared to foreign produced Turkish ones in Anatolia. Considering that the Emir's would naturally try to keep the expenses for the armor for their men as low as possible, they would obviously purchase much more common, locally produced, and thus inexpensive Arab style armors rather than trying to import foreign Turkish armor, which would be more expensive. This is also why the Zengids used mainly Arab armor as well, as described in the sources and images above, as they adopted the Iqta' system from the Seljuk's and most of their trade would've been with the much more organized (following the Seljuk collapse) Arabs and Crusaders and their own blacksmiths would've been mostly Arab as well.

Also, I checked out some of the Nihayat al-Su'l and Psychopathy is correct in saying that "Muhammad ibn 'Isa al-Hanafi al-Aqsara'i makes it clear that Arab Egyptian and Arab Levantine soldiers wore mainly mail and plated mail in the 1200's." For the plated mail, it specifically talks about "jawshan" which essentially refers to armor such as this (which is only partially survives and is one of the few known Mamluke armors that still exist according to MET):



After saying all this, I want to make it clear that I'm not saying it would've been absolutely, 100%, and without exception, impossible for any soldier in any Ayyubid army to ever be wearing Turkish armor. Obviously, some did and their usage only increased in the 15th century as the Ottomans gained more and more influence. The issue is that the vast majority of Ayyubid soldiers in this mod are wearing Turkish-style armor that is clearly historically out of place, especially in the High and Early Late Medieval Ages, while quite a large number of the units from the Kingdom of Jerusalem's roster do a better job of representing the Ayyubid army than the Ayyubid's own roster.

[zsimmortal]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Both of you are correct in this assertion. Many Ayyubid cavalrymen were of Turkish origin. However, the assumption is being made that it naturally follows they wore Turkish armor. This is false. Only a minority of Ayyubid and Mamluke soldiers actually wore the lamellar armor they're often depicted wearing, as they are in this mod, during the 12th and 13th centuries. Furthermore, even Turkish armies south of Anatolia abandoned traditionally Turkish armor in favor of much more Arab-style armor. This can be seen in this source:



Notice how it says Mu'izz al Din "led a cavalry force armed with long lances and swords, wearing full-length mail hauberks and perhaps segmented helmets with plumes or crests." The Arab fashion they adopted is clearly much more reminiscent of the Crusaders themselves (and it should be noted that the Crusaders States gradually adopted more Arab, Byzantine, and other local styles, such as turbans, lightly colored coats over their armor, and lamellar). Also, the segmented helmets are also another example of Arab armor. The Arabs had used conical segmented helmets since the very early Medieval Ages, both nasal and non-nasal ones, such as these:


This second picture is actually of Nur ad-Din, the famous (Turkish) Zengid ruler. It's no coincidence he's wearing an Arab style helmet here rather than a Turkish one, because the Zengids were further south from Anatolia.

Hence, an actual typical Ayyubid soldier during this time period would've looked much more like this. He has the correct chain mail armor and helmet, as well as a much more realistic cloak over the armor, compared to the extremely over-stylized ones we tend to see with Western depictions of medieval Arab armies.


Speaking of over-stylized clothing, the main reason we see Islamic soldier depicted with those so often is more than likely because of this:



The Crusader chroniclers overemphasis of the Turcomen in Ayyubid armies obviously led to the stereotype in the Christian European mind thatthis is how Arab and Muslim soldiers dress. Extremely light with tons of colors and designs. It didn't help that they mainly served in the auxiliary as well, meaning they would often be the first thing of the army that the Crusaders would see.

Also, I think its worth mentioning why Arab armor would be so prevalent over Turkish armor in Ayyubid armies. This was mainly because of the Iqta' system, as described by esteemed Islamic historian Sato Tsugitaka here:



Similarly to the feudal systems of Western Europe, when the King would declare war, the muqta', who would typically be Emir's (Arabic for Lords), would have to gather the peasants and other men of the iqta' to lead them in war, while also helping supply and pay for their armor. Considering that most of the armor produced in the Dominions of the Ayyubid Sultanate in this time period was by Arabs, armors of the Arab style, as shown in the image of the soldier above, were much more mass produced compared to foreign produced Turkish ones in Anatolia. Considering that the Emir's would naturally try to keep the expenses for the armor for their men as low as possible, they would obviously purchase much more common, locally produced, and thus inexpensive Arab style armors rather than trying to import foreign Turkish armor, which would be more expensive. This is also why the Zengids used mainly Arab armor as well, as described in the sources and images above, as they adopted the Iqta' system from the Seljuk's and most of their trade would've been with the much more organized (following the Seljuk collapse) Arabs and Crusaders and their own blacksmiths would've been mostly Arab as well.

Also, I checked out some of the Nihayat al-Su'l and Psychopathy is correct in saying that "Muhammad ibn 'Isa al-Hanafi al-Aqsara'i makes it clear that Arab Egyptian and Arab Levantine soldiers wore mainly mail and plated mail in the 1200's." For the plated mail, it specifically talks about "jawshan" which essentially refers to armor such as this (which is only partially survives and is one of the few known Mamluke armors that still exist according to MET):



After saying all this, I want to make it clear that I'm not saying it would've been absolutely, 100%, and without exception, impossible for any soldier in any Ayyubid army to ever be wearing Turkish armor. Obviously, some did and their usage only increased in the 15th century as the Ottomans gained more and more influence. The issue is that the vast majority of Ayyubid soldiers in this mod are wearing Turkish-style armor that is clearly historically out of place, especially in the High and Early Late Medieval Ages, while quite a large number of the units from the Kingdom of Jerusalem's roster do a better job of representing the Ayyubid army than the Ayyubid's own roster.

Look, this isn't the thread for this discussion, but I see you're very much interested in Arabic arms and armour. However, much of your notions are inaccurate. The most egregious one is that you do not differentiate earlier 'Jawshan', which was used to describe lamellar cuirasses and are the kind of armours a Turkish cavalryman would use (i.e. it is of steppe origin), the very armour you said was inaccurate in the in-game screenshot you referenced. The plate-and-mail you show is also named 'Jawshan', but only appears in the second half of the 15th century and is also of Persian origin. However, it spread to the Mamluk sultanate, the Ottoman empire, Russia and India.

Also, Muqtas in the Ayyubid sultanate were also largely of Turkish stock. Since it was a form of salary for professional troops, a huge number of iqtas went to manumissioned Mamluks who were the most loyal soldiers of the Sultans. A muqta was NOT like a feudal title either, as it only gave very small powers to its holders, largely regarding the gathering of taxes. They were not responsible for conscripting peasants, but rather personally responsible for arming a number of soldiers based on their iqta (which they would pay through the tax collected). Those soldiers could be anyone.

To equate Turkish presence or influence to horse archers in an army is also to completely misunderstand the spread of military fashion. Seljuks and their successors had a huge influence on Middle Eastern arms and armour, including in Egypt and the Levant. 'Arabic' military fashion (and even Persian military fashion) became deeply intertwined with the Turkish style, though to a lesser degree than the kingdoms further East.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

I think it's fairly appropriate for Ayyubid soldiers to be wearing Turkish helmets, most of their soldiers were ethnically turkic

[You_Guess_Who]

If you want to argue about Ayyubid armour, do it in the Ayyubid thread here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ubid-Sultanate
Oh and I'm sure, there is no shortage of Kazaghand and Mail armour in Ayyubid roster.

[Knight2708]

Coat of arms of Garin de Montaigu, grand master of the Knights of St. John 1207-1228, for the tier 1 grand master:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Coat of arms of Guillaume de Chartres, grand master of the Knights Templar 1210-1218, for the tier 1 grand master:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: