Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Jerusalem and Cyprus

[OutsiderKK]

All the faction threads should be like this

[Vamandrac]

Hey! I see this topic has seen some attention while I've been abroad. Time to address some things.

1. I don't plan to use too many models from Ridley Scott's movie. It's a fun movie but it's far from a definitive interpretation of how people dressed back then, plus there are some problems with historical accuracy, which we are striving for with this mod. That being said, I did use the blue on some of my designs as well as the King of Cyprus and Jerusalem.

2. The dismounted knights have a sword or axe as a secondary weapon. I would really like to make it so that they can only hold the spears in a defensive formation (it's not very realistic for any unit other than the Swiss to advance in a close formation with pikes pre-16th century), but I can't seem to get the balance right so that they aren't very effective with their swords, and they get slaughtered by almost any unit if I take away the macedonian pike wall ability.

3. For voices, I use Eastern for Poulain units, Barbarian for Crusaders, and Roman for the Military Orders. I think it fits quite well, even if it is imperfect.

Also, the units in this thread are mostly outdated. The official and most current units are here! Thanks for all the interest and input.

So in regards to the knights with spears if you can't seem to get them to balance right then why not just include the unit in both categories? The current roster seems to be very spear heavy and when not fighting in a defensive method knights would rarely choose to use a spear over their sword/mace and shield. Having knights as melee fighters as well would seem to be a good compromise if you cant get them to switch weapons properly.

[Filips Augustus]

I agree with Vamandrac. If that is not possible then I personally think the dismounted crusader knights should just get the sword/mace/axe combo, because the amount of spearmen is too much right now. Perhaps increase their stats as melee fighters, and make them not so strong as regular spearmen should do the trick to enable the weapon switch wothout throwing off the balance, if that's possible?

[stevehoos]

I agree with Vamandrac. If that is not possible then I personally think the dismounted crusader knights should just get the sword/mace/axe combo, because the amount of spearmen is too much right now. Perhaps increase their stats as melee fighters, and make them not so strong as regular spearmen should do the trick to enable the weapon switch wothout throwing off the balance, if that's possible?

Yeah, I agree with this too.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Hey everyone! Big update to the KJC roster. Lots of new units and a big re-vamp of a few. Check it out! These will be available in the hotfix releasing very soon!

[Filips Augustus]

*Claps hands* well done sir, well done!

[Teutonic]

Fabulous update! Stunning stuff mate

[Kjertesvein]

Once again, above and beyond. The use of shields here is really cool. The idea fits well and is unique. It reminds me of those images where we see soldiers, who need to get the triangular shield out of the way [1][2]. Then they have free range of motion with both hands for an even more powerful strike. Looks awesome.

As for constructive criticism: They look great and I appreciate why it's done, but the prevalent use of the cuirass in Tier 2, specifically the serjeant -class units is anachronistic. For the most advanced factions of late medieval Europe, like Burgundy, northern Italy and southern Germany, they belong in the 3rd or 4th quarter of the 15th century.[3]

~Wille

[Teutonic]

I noticed a unit of Genoese spearmen in the update. Do you intend to add the mercenary Genoese crossbowmen that are currently in the French roster? It would make sense.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

I noticed a unit of Genoese spearmen in the update. Do you intend to add the mercenary Genoese crossbowmen that are currently in the French roster? It would make sense.

You're right, that would make sense. Tbh I totally forgot about it! I'll make that change at some point down the line, but the faction already has a plethora of crossbowmen to choose from.

[Visarion]

Maaaannn thiiissss isss crazzzyyy gooodddd!!!!!! Omg!

[Påsan]

Love the new layout. The most beautiful faction in a beautiful mod.

One thing I notoced though, "swedish crusade"? As far as i know there were three of them and all directed at finland and the balkans.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Love the new layout. The most beautiful faction in a beautiful mod.

One thing I notoced though, "swedish crusade"? As far as i know there were three of them and all directed at finland and the balkans.

Ach! You're right! I was thinking of the Scandinavian expedition which set out in 1216 during the Fifth Crusade. It was somewhat abortive, as Inge II of Norway took the cross and then died soon after, so not many made it down there. I conflated it with the Swedish Crusade in my head as I was writing from memory, which you are right was a completely different affair.

[Visarion]

Yeah but the Genoese men... the best crosmowmen like eveeerrr... yeah kidding... anyway did crusader like had to dismout and improvise a pike phalanx with their lances. Out of curiosity did that ever happen? Like is it documented?

Edit: well guess like when the terrain eas not good they had to umprovise otherwise would go on purpose dismounted and pick their weapons I guess... just not the best unit regarding the looks to be dismounted that s all but again I am such a bad critic... the one Kjertesven said it s ahead of time... like maybe the angle of the screenshot or stuff like that but the other loke ughhh I bite my lips and I keep scratchin just wanna like fight with them, imagine I was there and stuff... yeag great feelin thx 4 that

Edit: maaannn I can t get enough of this preview like ugghhhh maaannn so many units of so many culture in the same place like epic... guess that is hiw it was like... in a crusade like meeting an entire continent in such a small and crowded place... like in the theatre... great stuff so many units to choose from just like Greeks of TS II I guess such a nice faction to play with...

Edit: yup it was the angle...

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Yeah but the Genoese men... the best crosmowmen like eveeerrr... yeah kidding... anyway did crusader like had to dismout and improvise a pike phalanx with their lances. Out of curiosity did that ever happen? Like is it documented?

Edit: well guess like when the terrain eas not good they had to umprovise otherwise would go on purpose dismounted and pick their weapons I guess... just not the best unit regarding the looks to be dismounted that s all but again I am such a bad critic... the one Kjertesven said it s ahead of time... like maybe the angle of the screenshot or stuff like that but the other loke ughhh I bite my lips and I keep scratchin just wanna like fight with them, imagine I was there and stuff... yeag great feelin thx 4 that

Edit: maaannn I can t get enough of this preview like ugghhhh maaannn so many units of so many culture in the same place like epic... guess that is hiw it was like... in a crusade like meeting an entire continent in such a small and crowded place... like in the theatre... great stuff so many units to choose from just like Greeks of TS II I guess such a nice faction to play with...

Edit: yup it was the angle...

The short answer to whether the pike formation I used in the game is historical or not is yes and no. We know that knights often fought dismounted. This is especially true in Outremer, where source accounts such as the Gesta Francorum, Fulcher de Chartres, Oliver of Paderbor, and many others talk about knights fighting on foot because they have lost their horses due to disease or enemy action (one muslim source quoted by Philip Contamine recounts a tactic by the mamlukes to specifically shoot the horses, because Frankish saddles were so good that the knight could not be induced to fall off his horse). There are many ways to fight on foot. In John Keegan's version of the battle of Agincourt, he argues that the English would have used their lances in a sort of pike wall against the French. Multiple sources talk about knights using lances on foot or shortening their lances. RC Smail in particular makes note of how infantry were used in Outremer as a screen for the horsemen until they could counter-charge the muslims. The best way to create a screen like that, in my opinion, would be to take the lance on foot and create a big wall of spear-points. It's a very simple formation and as old as war.

It's not fully historical in the game, though, because Attila's mechanics means that it looks like a macedonian phalanx. It's doubtful that the Franks would have had that kind of training to form a more complex formation like that on foot. Also, like most (if not all) pike formations used prior to the Swiss in the late 14th century, this pike formation would probably have been static, or moved very slowly. It would not have been very useful in attacking, only defending. But, again, the dynamics of the game make it such that they behave mostly like a macedonian phalanx. Still, I think it is accurate enough.

TL;DR: Knights using lances on foot is probably historical, using them the way Attila animates them is not quite as historical.

As to the shields, heater shields are very versatile, and can be hung about the neck and moved aside in order to easily use two hands. You can see this in source images (I think someone posted some higher up in the thread). I've also built several of them myself based on historical examples, and have experimented with this. Based on how easy it was to keep the shield, I doubt a medieval soldier would have just tossed it.

I'm glad you're so excited about my faction. You'll be able to play with all of these units when the hotfix comes out very soon (within the week I think)

[Visarion]

Still I think the formation kind of evolved into this:

[Visarion]

They would have probably throw away the shield... even in the classic age Hellenes tried to use the thureos but to no good, only the round smaller pelte was used... I think those kite shield would have encumbered them and not give them enough movement space so maybe without those shields... or even like total different units for pikemen... not dismounted improvisations... even the Roxolani when cought by the Romans enoumbered by the loot had no way of protecting themselves after falling off the horse... they only had lances... guess knights would have simply used the secondary weapons... or throw away the shield and use lances if they decided to fight dismounted... when the battle was iver they could take them... I can't imagine a unit deciding to fight as pikemen and suddenly becoming a melee force...

That and the fact that those long scale mail shirts just fon t look good on dismounted units... Edit unfinished edges... like too long... maybe some cloth or chain underneath... edit smth like those osthrogoth pikes from attilla... shorter scale shorts and cloth underneath... or just plate... plate and chain... edit i don t know smth aesthetically more satisfyin I mean sure when they are mounted like naaahhh there s the saddle... but when they are on foot welll... there s no saddle... and the shield too naaahhh it would encumber them... edit and again pikes goin throwg it ughh not very well lookin... edit his arm too going out of the shield... through it i mean... that sword stuff like when you keep the sword in it... when not using it like too going through the shield... uhmmm

But that s just me obssessed guy perfection and stuff sucks... being me i mean...



Like yeah knight did dismount and smtimes had to even use the lance but they got read of the shield... like it ws a desperate measure... a one last stand... they only kept the shield if fighting in melee with the sword axe mace etc.

[Visarion]

The thing is that it kind of makes me feel i m in the wrong mod like macedonian phalanx in 1200-1500 naaahhh... like two types in medieval times... well three... one row like spears, two rows but first normal and the second on the shoulders, three rows first kneeling second middle and raised a little bit up and third on the sholders... well four types a single row with pikes on the sholder... classical grip or left hand grip or sholder helped grip... well more formations like two rows of men kneeling and other two raised up or even another one with the pike at shoulder level and stuff but the thing is that the macedonian phalanx formation of five horizontal lines or like even three or two overlapsing was extinct... obsolete... sure tercio pikemen would insert shooters too with firearms... put you know schiltron and derivated... yeah sry but just look obsolete and no shield... found no evidence to that... for instance to that unit like if you want two rows one kneeling and the others shoulder level or even one hips level and the ither shoulder level or best would be one kneeling one hips level and one shoulder level

[Visarion]

I see... still I wish it could be done... like is nt there no way to change formations?

Basically these were the medieval pike formations and teah they were static... includin tercio and scottisc sxhiltron... only macedian and swiss were mobile... indeed that needed a lot of discpline and coordonation... yeah ty... hmmm wish there was the schiltron or tercio however but still static... otherwise just spears or halberds would do if like formations are limited.... hard coded and stuff... ty 4 your time and patience... yeah they could just carry the shield... like when you don t have a horse you become a squire... edit screening and stuff... I got the picture or be reformed but at such a long distance from home just imprivise... still I would just not put the unit if I had to make a bargain... like a how is it called!? Hmmm making a ... hmmm anyway I would just make them spearmen... halberdiers swordsmen or givin greatswords muxed with poleaxes medieval pick and stuff like you did with the rest... or schiltron if possible again like a last standoff...

[Visarion]

Just put the shields on their back still... or no shield... it hives the impresion that they use it and they look luke an obsolete macedonian phalanx... when in melee with the sword or whatever they carry they can use the shield... from their back... or if they preffer greatweapons than no shield... it would be more accurate... I mean most likely that the way they are they march with both lance and shield... making them look anachronistic... but again that s just me... anyway again the rest of the troops are breathtaking! you put a lot if time and study for sure! Great work! Nicely done sir! You have my respect for the amount of hours and work put for us all to enjoy and have a very good warfare simulacrum! Thank you once more! All the best and please excuse me if I was rude in any way, just trying to give productive criticism that's all! All the best! And much respect!