Local Tavern OOC Chat Thread

[The Mad Skylord]

I would have, but oh wait, I wasn't actually a usurper, unlike a certain Targaryen, I mean Blackfyre.

[Mary The Quene]

Have we had any kings that don't care to admit the fact that they're usurpers, or that their vanquished rival pretender may have had a better claim?

You'd think lords would grow tired of the weird "politically correct" rightful/usurper dichotomy our kings enforce. A brutally honest King might actually be popular because of that.

For some reason this reminds me of Trump. ''Politically correct'', ''brutally honest'' (Trump's honesty is dubious at best) and he also popular because of not being ''politically'' correct

[Trot]

So let's see Frey murder a Reed tomight.

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[The Mad Skylord]

Why would he do that? My masses of deadly silent infantry are ready and we are the masters of water! Frey would burn for such a crime!

[Barry Goldwater]

Oh hey, we're on a new thread already! I wonder what were the last posts in the old one before it got closed -

Have we had any kings that don't care to admit the fact that they're usurpers, or that their vanquished rival pretender may have had a better claim?

You'd think lords would grow tired of the weird "politically correct" rightful/usurper dichotomy our kings enforce. A brutally honest King might actually be popular because of that.

A ruler with a Renly-like 'welp I don't have a particularly good claim, so here's my thousands upon thousands of swords instead' attitude sounds refreshing, but I suppose most of Westeros prizes its blood connections and notions of legitimacy too much to stop pretending (or because, as Stannis might argue, an unlawful ruler brazenly usurping power and not even pretending to hide it sets a poor precedent, opening the door to succession crises escalating into war when he dies & when each of his descendants die as each heir chooses to try claiming the throne by force as their ancestor did). Even Robert was chosen to take the IT out of all his fellow rebels, despite his increasingly obvious incompetence at and dislike for day-to-day administration, b/c out of the crop of Ned/Jon Arryn/Hoster Tully/Tywin Lannister he alone had the Targ connection to make it work.

[Lord Azazel]

Going to take nap. Will respond when I get up

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[Poach]

No King would admit that in public, while on the Throne. The entire point of their claim is that they're the rightful Kings.

Blackfyre can and should believe he's the rightful King. Rhaegar is missing, he might as well be dead, while the Blackfyres are still of the Targaryen lineage.

[Pericles of Athens]

I suppose you can't be too careful with two little silver haired boys running around.

[Dirty Chai]

For some reason this reminds me of Trump. ''Politically correct'', ''brutally honest'' (Trump's honesty is dubious at best) and he also popular because of not being ''politically'' correct

Just for the record..

Completely different kind of political correctness, more of a literal kind.
The kind Trumpeters talks about is ... trumped up.. and exagerrated, and strawman'd excuse for them to shout out racial slurs and parade it as "freedom of speech" (as if that was ever being threatened).

A ruler with a Renly-like 'welp I don't have a particularly good claim, so here's my thousands upon thousands of swords instead' attitude sounds refreshing, but I suppose most of Westeros prizes its blood connections and notions of legitimacy too much to stop pretending (or because, as Stannis might argue, an unlawful ruler brazenly usurping power and not even pretending to hide it sets a poor precedent, opening the door to succession crises escalating into war when he dies & when each of his descendants die as each heir chooses to try claiming the throne by force as their ancestor did). Even Robert was chosen to take the IT out of all his fellow rebels, despite his increasingly obvious incompetence at and dislike for day-to-day administration, b/c out of the crop of Ned/Jon Arryn/Hoster Tully/Tywin Lannister he alone had the Targ connection to make it work.

No King would admit that in public, while on the Throne. The entire point of their claim is that they're the rightful Kings.

Blackfyre can and should believe he's the rightful King. Rhaegar is missing, he might as well be dead, while the Blackfyres are still of the Targaryen lineage.

No, you guys are misunderstanding me.

Let's take someone like Blackfyre; this Blackfyre.
He IS an usurper. By definition. Him calling himself the rightful king just isn't true. By the cleanest/most common definition of that term, it would be by closest blood connection to the last king, Aerys, and that's certainly not Maegor (who's using the Blackfyre claim anywhow, rather than his Targaryen connections). The point of the term "rightful king" is kind of lost in a situation like Blackfyre's.

Calling himself "the rightful king" probably falls on a lot of deaf ears, to be honest. It's not that his rule isn't accepted - it largely is at this point. But saying he's the "rightful king" is like watching some terrible education video in school.

He's supported now because he's the one in power, with no real alternative. Not because he's "rightful".
And lords will generally become content with changes in power if they bring peace and the new king doesn't want to steal their lands or behave in a "tyrannical" fashion.

A king admitting in public that he took the throne by force and is not the individual with the most direct blood claim, does not make him weak or hurt his support. At least, not IN THIS scenario, where it's been taken by force, and the only "resistance" right now is generally lords acting in self-preservation during a regime transition.

If he was a king who was chosen by a great council out a litter of other claimants with similar levels of "right", yeah that could hurt him. But not here.

(LM, I'm not telling you to change your RP or criticizing you, do your thing man, it's cool, just using Maegor/Daemon as an example)

[Oznerol]

In fact Maegor's stronger claim is his own lineage: he's the son of Daenora Targaryen, who in turn was the only living daughter of Rhaegel Targaryen, and Aerion Targaryen. By the laws of primogeniture, that the council which elected Aegon V chose to disregard, he is the rightful king, by the legitimate line. Being a Blackfyre is a more dubious claim, as Serra only descends from Daemon I by the female line (twice, for the claim is through her mother and grandmother). Thus Maegor has a much more powerful claim as himself than as Daemon. In fact, it should be like Henry VII marrying Elisabeth of York, but LM, oddly, chose to keep it secret most foolishly. If the crown was mine my whole propaganda would be based around the final reunion of the divergent bloodlines and the reconciliation between the Black and the Red Dragon. It would usher a new era of peace and there's no-one who can boast to be both at the same time. But nope... LM prefers to call himself Daemon, when is he is none and is a much more suited candidate for the throne being Maegor himself.

[Dirty Chai]

There isn't a closer living male relative to Aerys?
Realistically, there would be, but we like our family trees quite concise..

Despite that, my point is that I will be veerrry surprised if any lords supporting him are supporting him because they think he's "rightful". Pretty confident it's because he defeated his rival, Steffon, and put himself on the throne with a lot of swords to his name.

That said, if a random lord did the same, such as say.. House Whent, we'd have a different story altogther. Complete resistance to the idea of him being king, due to no blood relation to the Targaryens whatsoever.

[Lord Dread]

If you think about it, some players play Kings most of the time similiar to a general concept. I'm used for most of the times from LM partly backstabby but otherwise pretty honorable and intelligent rulers, with whom you can argue on a high basis, while they have few principles and otherwise just gouvern the realm - being more the category of stable rulers.

On the other opposite end we had rulers like Oz' Targaryen King and Skylord, who probably tried to play out the stablized ruler concept if they needed it, but for most of the time it was either chaos or the King losing power of his supporters.

So, for analysis it's not bad that we have currently LM as a King, as he actually gives us some small peace period with minor tensions for the moment, leaving behind the chaos left by Aerys.
Though the RP lived up due to Skylord's unusual kingship concept, I think it would have lead at some point to an end as well, if he would have continiued to live on. Both ruler concepts are needed to keep up a good RP and more necessarily Kingly players should be aware that their character might die at some point for the sake of the plot or has at least to defend himself to proof once more his power.
Therefore, it's fine in my eyes and doesn't need to be a critique.

[The Mad Skylord]

If you think about it, some players play Kings most of the time similiar to a general concept. I'm used for most of the times from LM partly backstabby but otherwise pretty honorable and intelligent rulers, with whom you can argue on a high basis, while they have few principles and otherwise just gouvern the realm - being more the category of stable rulers.

On the other opposite end we had rulers like Oz' Targaryen King and Skylord, who probably tried to play out the stablized ruler concept if they needed it, but for most of the time it was either chaos or the King losing power of his supporters.

So, for analysis it's not bad that we have currently LM as a King, as he actually gives us some small peace period with minor tensions for the moment, leaving behind the chaos left by Aerys.
Though the RP lived up due to Skylord's unusual kingship concept, I think it would have lead at some point to an end as well, if he would have continiued to live on. Both ruler concepts are needed to keep up a good RP and more necessarily Kingly players should be aware that their character might die at some point for the sake of the plot or has at least to defend himself to proof once more his power.
Therefore, it's fine in my eyes and doesn't need to be a critique.

My only regrets are that I dind't get to set KL aflame and that i didn't get to wipe out 3 or 4 more houses.

[Dirty Chai]

I guess all I'm saying is.. What's the definition of rightful? The definition is certainly different for every king.

Certainly sounds like something Baelish and Varys would debate about with the Iron Throne in the scene backdrop.

[Oznerol]

My own comment about Maegor having a better claim that his Daemon persona and the realization about how close we're sometimes to replay lore without even trying reminds me of...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc

Also, speaking about Varys and Littlefinger...

[Lord Dread]

Thing is, my LP has to accept Daemon as the rightful king, given that his entire host died due to his forces along with Steffon,
while the Hightowers are just having their own advantage in front of them regarding the seat of the Faith. These guys might become the next Borgias, while it depends kinda on how the situation regarding the High Septon will play out.

[Oznerol]

LD&LM:

[Dirty Chai]

"Rightful king" only so far as they're bowing to him, LD. That doesn't mean they're actually thinking that.

With a lot of lords, it's probably just something like this: "well, if we bow, it'll be peace. Maybe the new king will be alright."

[Oznerol]

[Lord Dread]

"Rightful king" only so far as they're bowing to him, LD. That doesn't mean they're actually thinking that.

With a lot of lords, it's probably just something like this: "well, if we bow, it'll be peace. Maybe the new king will be alright."

Well, my levy alone can't fight for the cause of a dead king.
Not to mention, that Arryn can assume that he has to rebuild his reputation after 2 lost wars
and I see no reason why Hightower should betray his liege for following another King or the High Septon.

Don't worry, I proofchecked my options.