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  1. #1
    Trot's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Spying rework

    This is a rough draft some numbers and abilities may need to be adjusted for balance purposes. I want suggestions and ideas here to make spying a more useful path.

    New Spy Rules
    Prerequisite: Be a Lord (or higher), be Master of Whispers, or be a Merchant Prince.

    In a Spy Network you may employ a maximum of five spies, each costing 30,000 dragons hire fee and 5,000 dragons salary. These spies may be sent to spy on specific characters, and can start feeding information back to their master after one week.

    All rolls are modified by the Spymaster and Counterspy traits of the Spy's employer and the Character being spied on respectively.

    Spys attempt to infiltrate into the Household of the target:

    1-2 spy caught during infiltration
    3-6 spy unable to infiltrate
    7-12 spy partially infiltrates(request another roll next week with a +5 modifier) 13-20 spy infiltrates

    Once a spy has infiltrated a target you will begin to gain passive information on them. You learn they have called their banners 50% faster than a player you don’t have a spy you also learn of any secret meetings but not the details that are discussed within.

    You may then request two action rolls per week:
    Actions include:
    Information rolls- Allow you to learn secret plots of the character you request them against
    Subterfuge Rolls- Allow you to stat Rumors about the target in question
    Sabotage rolls- Can slow down the production of troops or building, or make them more expensive
    Infiltration rolls- Having a man in a castle can be used to give positive modifiers on escape or assignation rolls.


    Information Roll
    1 spy is caught
    2-5 no information gathered
    6-10 vague information (eg, who they meet with, where they went)
    11-15 some information (eg, the general tone of discussion: treason, rebellion, framing someone)
    16-19 most information (eg, some specifics. Rebelling against the King, framing the Master of Laws)
    20 everything

    Subterfuge Roll- modifiers applied by how believable the request is.
    1-5 Rumor fails to gain traction
    6-10 Rumors is believed by some
    11-15 Rumor is treated with skepticism
    16-19 Rumor is believed by most who hear it
    20 All believe the Rumor


    Sabotage Rolls
    1-4 Spy is caught
    5-8 Spy fails to sabotage
    9-12 delays project for 3 real life days
    13-16 Delays project for 1 real life week
    17- 19 Delays project for 1 real life week and makes it 50% more expensive
    20 Delays project for one real life week and causes it to be 100% more expensive

    Infiltration roll
    1-5 Spy is caught
    6-10 Spy fails
    11-15 +2 to escape, capture or assignation rolls against target
    16-19 +4 to escape, capture or assignation rolls against target
    20 +6 to escape, capture or assignation rolls against target


    If the spy is caught, he reveals information. Torture Roll:

    1-5 spy dies revealing nothing
    6-10 spy survives, but cannot be cracked. He can be used as evidence if his employer can be determined through other means, or executed.
    11-15 spy reveals his employer
    16-20 spy reveals his employer and any information he's already passed back

    Important Note: This rule set applies only to the 5 hired spies a player character can employ. If a player character wishes to spy directly themselves, they will need to RP themselves into places where rolls can be made. That can be as simple as RPing breaking into someone's office in King's Landing after dark and looking for something, or making it known your character is following the person secretly. Naturally risk rolls will always be conducted, and if your character tries to infiltrate something very important like a Small Council meeting those risks will be much higher.

    New buildings
    Tier 1
    Spy guild- allows for the recruitment of 1 additional spy
    Tier 2
    Veteran Spy guild- allows for the recruitment of 1 additional spy and gives +1 to all spy rolls
    Tier 3
    Master Spy Guild- allows for the recruitment of 1 additional spy and gives +1 to all spy rolls Spy upkeep 25% cheaper
    Tier 4
    Grand Master Spy guild- allows for the recruitment of 2 additional spy and gives +1 to all spy rolls. Spy upkeep 25% cheaper.

    So completed Spy tree gives 5 additional spies and +3 to spy rolls and 50% cheaper spy upkeep.

    New Retinue
    Middle man +1 Spy trait

  2. #2
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    Why not make it so you can employ 5 spies per region? Make it a really time consuming thing that you need to be devoted to, but you can deploy a network in every kingdom, so you actually have a chance to be like Varys.

  3. #3
    Lucius Malfoy's Avatar Pure-Blood
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    Cause having 5 spies per region is OP, Skylord. You can still be the Varys of Westeros, but we have to think that, mechanically, this ensures balance and those who have the money don't just have the advantage over other players. I mean imagine if Ponti, as House Lannister, could have 5 spies per region cause he has the money to do so. Do you really want that, Skylord?

    @Trot:
    At least these rules should make being Master of Spies more interesting.
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  4. #4
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    Then make it 1 or 2. Or make it scaling depending on how close you are to each region.

    Meh, we have that problem with everything. If one house can afford it, chances are Lannister can buy it 3 times over.

  5. #5
    Lucius Malfoy's Avatar Pure-Blood
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    Its better to just keep it at the same level for everyone. All for the sake of balance after all.

    I mean imagine the work mods would have to do if those with spy-happy chars continuously did 5 rolls per region every year. That would be 35 rolls per week per character that requests it. That wouldn't be fun work for us.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Spying rework

    Where does the Tier III Whisper House factor into this ruleset trot?

    as for the proposal itself, I support it

  7. #7

    Default Re: Spying rework

    Question

    When you mean Passive information, Do you mean that you will get a pm from a Mod with information daily, Weekly ?. Randomly ?

    Hmm Prehaps maybe we can add some more things for the Master of whispers to do.. maybe people can talk to him about hiring spies etc.. And roll for a chance that he tells the king what they are up to ( if they come to him and ask him to spy on someone, A roll is done to determine if he goes to the king with the infomation or keeps it to himself )

  8. #8
    Trot's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Where does the Tier III Whisper House factor into this ruleset trot?

    as for the proposal itself, I support it
    I feel it's best to ditch it for the new building, the old building modifiers were region limited so it wasn't worth much. Anyone who bought the building could choose to take a refund or exchange it for the new tier 1 and 2 spy buildings since they are equivalent cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Azazel View Post
    Question

    When you mean Passive information, Do you mean that you will get a pm from a Mod with information daily, Weekly ?. Randomly ?

    Hmm Prehaps maybe we can add some more things for the Master of whispers to do.. maybe people can talk to him about hiring spies etc.. And roll for a chance that he tells the king what they are up to ( if they come to him and ask him to spy on someone, A roll is done to determine if he goes to the king with the infomation or keeps it to himself )
    Passive information is just stuff you gain. So Lord A meets with Lord B and you have a spy on Lord A you will learn that they met, but not what they talked about. You can then request an information roll to learn what they talked about in their meeting.

    That's up to the character controlling the whispers. In a previous game I was playing Banefort using spies, I found out Crakehall was plotting to overthrow Lannister via a roll, and decided to take it to Lannister leading to the Crakhall rebellion when Crakehall learned his plot was uncovered. I could have withheld the information, but I was playing a minor Lord and wanted to ingratiate myself with Lannister.

  9. #9
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    Luckily I never got my hands on you, especially seeing as Crakehall won.

  10. #10
    Trot's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylord_Conor21 View Post
    Luckily I never got my hands on you, especially seeing as Crakehall won.
    That was Lannister's fault for immediately raising his levies and attacking. He should have invited you to Casterly rock and had you arrested.

  11. #11
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    This is true, although he couldn't have done that if I had demanded guest rights, which I would have had enough reasoning to do seeing as Crakehall spat in his face before eventually agreeing to give in to his Marches demand.

    I think Oz was going for a Tywin-esque approach. Murder the entire house and all it's vassals. I remember him stating this would be Jaime's big moment, his chance to be like Tywin.

    -----

    Anyway, cool job man. Seems like it will work.

  12. #12
    Pinkerton's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    I dunno, there's got to be another way, that means less work for the mods.

  13. #13
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    Thoughts on the proposal:

    1. The "Rumour" roll seems to be mechanically useless. What does having* a rumour gain you? I can guarantee players will ignore it if they don't want their character believing in it or will use the lack of concrete proof as reason not to act on it. See my second last paragraph below.

    2. Having a max of 5 spies with 5 more unlockable actually puts the Master of Whispers at a disadvantage, as he himself can only control 5 spies. You'll need to give him access to 10.

    3. The reason spying was dropped from the game was because every time a successful roll gave someone access to sensitive information there was a huge OOC falling out over it and people took to trying to RP ridiculous security measures like meeting someone alone in the middle of a field and contending that this meant spy rolls were forbidden or writing a paragraph about how they had two hundred guards including several sitting on the roof so any spy rolls should have huge negative modifiers.

    I would therefore suggest the following:

    - A spy having infiltrated will pass passive information without rolls. Passive information includes calling of Banners (you'll learn 50% faster than the rules say you should) and where they go (eg they went to Lannisport), but not who they met with.

    - Rolling for more specific information has the following table:

    1 The spy is caught.

    2-5 The spy fails to gather any information.

    6-15 Specifically who they met, but not what was discussed.

    16+ Who they met with and information on the tone of their conversation, but no target information (eg "a marriage agreement was reached", "Plans for war were discussed", "Trade was discussed", "Some plot was being discussed")

    Natural 20 only: A vague target location is learned (eg "a marriage agreement with a Reach house was reached", "Plans for war in the Riverlands were discussed", "A plot in King's Landing was discussed")

    The reason I'm suggesting a degree more vague than the proposal suggests is because it gives only a general idea of the intention, even with a perfect roll. The absolute best information you'll get is that the Tyrells are looking at marriage in the Reach, when the whole truth is that they're actually looking to prevent a marriage happening somewhere in the Reach, or that the Lannisters are preparing for war, when the whole truth is they're making ready to march to their allies aid should the Starks make the first move, or that there's some subterfuge going on in King's Landing, when the whole truth is Lord Footly is plotting to murder the Master of Laws. Even then that's a natural 20, most of the time you'll only get "Lord Footly went to Highgarden to discuss marriage": it might not even have been with the Tyrells.

    People threw their toys out the pram when a good spy roll meant their character was conclusively revealed to be specifically plotting to murder specifically the Master of Laws specifically because he was an ally of the Tyrells. That is unreasonably specific and since we can't keep OOC and IC 100% apart it's unreasonably powerful: given the chance people will have their characters believe completely the OOC-known truth because they themselves know what the truth is and can't stomach having their characters not be shrewd detectives who can see the truth through all the haze. I've seen it happen several times, I've only ever dropped characters in anger once and it was because of that behaviour. Very few people will willingly make their characters select the wrong answer if they think they can get away with selecting the right one, no matter how tenuous the truth looks or how much evidence seems to support the lie.

    As such I propose making the results far more vague so that spying becomes only a pointer, not an answer. Spies tell you the Lannisters are talking war: that sets your suspicion, allows you to look at it further, maybe lets you warn whoever you think the likely target is (from other IC information) that you have it on trustworthy authority that the Westerlands is considering the military option. There should not, by spying, be any way to gain any appreciable specifics about a plot, in my opinion.



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  14. #14
    Pinkerton's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    I'm liking what Poach is saying. But I also think that spies can be used as positive modifiers in particular situations, say that you want to poison someone, having a spy on their household will give you a +2 chance or something like that, decided by the mods on each case.

    Maybe limit the specific information rolls to 1 or 2 per year?

  15. #15
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    Trot's system does limit rolls to two per year already. I was only suggesting a change to the information roll part.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Spying rework

    I would say +2 spy overall not +3, but I can cosign this on an overall basis.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Spying rework

    this looks very good trot.. Look forward to using the new mechanics.

  18. #18
    Pinkerton's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Spying rework

    Any news on this front?

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