Are class differences noteable in modern time?

[Pandora]

The purpose of this thread is to debate class differences, and in what ways they can be seen in modern day society.
It can be anything from school fees, to insurance costs, to segregation within large cities, it is up to you what you wish to bring up
Another thing worth discussing is what politicians are currently doing to stop this problem and make societies more equal

[Tom Paine]

Yes. The US wealth-distribution:

Household income or consumption by percentage share:
lowest 10%: 1.8%
highest 10%: 30.5% (1997)

UK, same figure:

Household income or consumption by percentage share:
lowest 10%: 2.1%
highest 10%: 28.5% (1999)

That's noticeable, to say the least. And that's a top-bottom comparison, raw data. Income is different, educational level is different, the whole life is different. Class still exists, and so do class divides.

[Pandora]

Several professions in Britain seems to be particularly exposed to this, for example Carpenters and such who cannot afford to have their children go to a good school because the entrance fees are so high

[Aristophanes]

Several professions in Britain seems to be particularly exposed to this, for example Carpenters and such who cannot afford to have their children go to a good school because the entrance fees are so high

Wow.

Carpenters, and tradesmen in general, make fabulous money in North America. There are kids working in Fort Mac - really all over Northern Alberta and Saskatchewan - making $100 000+ a year. Too bad most of them spend the money on cars, booze and drugs!

[Tom Paine]

Several professions in Britain seems to be particularly exposed to this, for example Carpenters and such who cannot afford to have their children go to a good school because the entrance fees are so high

But some of the best schools are state schools. When you say a good school you actually mean a good public school.

G_C_L, where did you come to the extraordinary conclusion that 80% were middle class? There are about 10% uunder the poverty line in each nation; and you don't become middle class because you are above the poverty line.

[General_Curtis_LeMay]

Yes. The US wealth-distribution:

UK, same figure:


That's noticeable, to say the least. And that's a top-bottom comparison, raw data. Income is different, educational level is different, the whole life is different. Class still exists, and so do class divides.

But the point is what you're missing. 80% of the populace is the middle class!!!!! That is an unimaginable feat. There is class, yes but it is hardly noticable at a public school unless the kid goes areoung with a sign that reads: "I'm richer than you"
There will always be those that have more than others, it is part of nature, but as far as econimic development is concerned, it can't be improved. And this comed from the lips of a poor person.

[Da Skinna]

I think better wealth distributing programs should be in order to counter the problem of the widening gap between rich and poor families. In a nutshell that is, I don't have time right now to fully explain what.

[Armfelt]

I think there are two different class systems; economical class and cultural class.

They seldom go hand in hand.

[LoZz]

their is a little bit of a class system in the uk - its not as bad as it used to be.

but you only have to look at some of the poorer and badly educated lower class people to see the diffrence, their attitude and understanding to everything is so poor and its where partys like the BNP and the NF get alot of their votes, they grow on peoples ignorance.

[D-Rock]

I do not believe in wealth redistribution. There are poor people and there are ways out of poverty. It does take personal responsibility and the ability to prioritize. To tax people that have success with the burden of paying other peoples liabilities decreases the motivation to succeed. Why spend time in school or training for a job when somebody will pay it for me?? That is an attitude that leads to socialism.

I am sorry some people have to make sacrifices, but to tell me that it is my job to pay for it is lunacy. The government's only responsibility is to defend us and infrastructure, thats it. You get a job, you get paid and live your life.
Take out student loans, bust your butt in school (or on the job) and make a better life. I am still paying for school five years later. But don't be a baby and have a pity party.

[PacSubCom]

I do not believe in wealth redistribution. There are poor people and there are ways out of poverty. It does take personal responsibility and the ability to prioritize. To tax people that have success with the burden of paying other peoples liabilities decreases the motivation to succeed. Why spend time in school or training for a job when somebody will pay it for me?? That is an attitude that leads to socialism.

I am sorry some people have to make sacrifices, but to tell me that it is my job to pay for it is lunacy. The government's only responsibility is to defend us and infrastructure, thats it. You get a job, you get paid and live your life.
Take out student loans, bust your butt in school (or on the job) and make a better life. I am still paying for school five years later. But don't be a baby and have a pity party.

1. Don't talk about socialism. You don't know what it is. Socialism is the root cause for any opportunity you have in the first place. Without it you would be a serf now. A slave in the mill. With no "better life" in sight. Forgotten you may have the 19th century, many others haven't.

2. Opportunity is not equally distributed. If you have a job you should know how it's like in the world. We may throw a pity party that you don't.

[D-Rock]

So exactly what is socialism.

Well there is the Marxist version which worked out so well.

There is the form where a centrist control (government) nationalizes all most everything because they consider everything from labor to corporation as a commodity.

Then there is a small part about public ownership and since the public owns and the government is accountable to the people, we got the philosophy of "doing things for the greater good". That sounds great but who will pay for it. I guess the taxed workers. So why work in a socialistic society, other people will take care of that.

Many forms such as social democracy (elected socialism) bring about the "wellfare state" where the government controls through local principalities everything from healthcare, gas production, and even child care. Recent example Venezuela and their gas production, government took it over and yeah it is 0.12/gallon but it cost thousands of jobs and took the competition out of business. With out competition there is nothing pushing R&D, so eventually a lag happens and the country falls further behind. I guess then you could blame America, Britain, or Japan for making you look bad, but you should be looking at yourself.

Some forms actually embrace a small sense of capitalism based on labor unions. Which kind of goes back to a central control. Has/is there a socialistic country has ever developed into a super-power with out collapsing under the weight of it's own government or being changed mostly into a version of capitalism. Most of Europe have developed into a capitalist society. Russia collapsed. SE asia is capitalistic (compare Japan or South Korea with North Korea) Maybe China, but there are a bunch of starving people and a pretty high poverty rate.

It does seem that most modern government forms of socialism do have a decreasing poverty population, but I guess when everything is free people don't need money. But nothing is free so I guess the people that actually have jobs in those countries will burden the blunt.

The serf part doesn't make much since to me because once the heirarchies fell and people could actually break the bond of taxation and merciless government control then the "world" took off. Competition pushed everyone to go farther, which in turn lead to breakthroughs in technology, which lead to expansion of the workplace (jobs), and the cycle continues. Now I do understand that technology grows exponentially, but all the advancements in that curve were made by trying to improve a product or create a better product.

Oppurtunity is not easy and it takes a resiliant spirit to succeed. Oppurtunity isn't always equal but it is obtainable. Just because it is hard doesn't mean that is not there. And just because most fail, doesn't make the system wrong. what makes the system wrong is that nobody is pushing us to do better.

[PacSubCom]

Oppurtunity is not easy and it takes a resiliant spirit to succeed. Oppurtunity isn't always equal but it is obtainable.

To many it isn't, and that's the point. Many don't get the chance.

But it's not the only point. Does everybody have the resilient spirit you are talking about? What with those who haven't got it? People who give up hope? Those must then be poor or what? Poor generally means less health, less education, less chances and less self confidence for your children, who are born into it and aren't responsible. It is a downward spiral, poverty, crime, drugs, domestic violence, disease etc.

So if you do not fit into cut throat competition, you must die early because you can't pay the doctor? One wonders what society is for, if it is all about the survival of the fittest anyway.

You have to choose: If you want a society which discards the weak as trash, then the day will come when the trash is standing at your door. And if you won't give, they will take. Nobody is an island. If a large number of lives go to hell, everybody is affected. Obviously.


Socialism is all around us. You live socialist values without even knowing it. Or do you actually work 16 hour days six days a week with such meager pay that your wife has to work the same way and your children do menial work at the factory for 10 hours a day? There were times when that was the norm. Or do you have work security? Do you have a health care or pension fund program? Minimum wages? The stuff you take for granted now had to be bitterly fought over by generations of workers and employees who organized in worker movements. That, too, is socialism. That is how "the hierarchies fell".

[Erik]

Most of Europe have developed into a capitalist society.

Really? when exactly was Europe more socialistic than it is today?

Western Europe has gradually become more and more socialistic.
And at the same time the economic class differences have dramatically decreased in Western Europe.

America and Britain have remained very capitalistic.
And consequently their economic class differences are much larger than in Western Europe.

There is still some poverty in Western Europe, but I wouldn't call it a class difference except in a few areas like the suburbs in Paris. (last years riots clearly exposed this class difference).

On the other hand I do see a larger and larger cultural class difference.
Most notably between Muslims and whites.
And I find this very worrying.

This is not true. the top 1% of our population in the US pays 37.2% of all income taxes

This means nothing because if they earn 50% of all the money then 37.2% is actually very little.

But more importantly you have to remember that once you made your first million you actually don't have to work that hard to earn the next million.
The rich will always make far more money per hour worked than somebody on minimum wage, even under the most progressive tax system.

Just compare:
-Cleaner, working 8 hours a day (5 days a week, 48 weeks per year), aprox $20.000 per year, 10% tax, $18.000 net. = $9.38/hour after tax
-CEO, working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, 48 weeks per year, aprox 1 million per year, 70% tax, $300.000 net. = $86.81/hour after tax.
Oh...why would anyone want to become a CEO under this system? where are the benefits? ohhh, it's so unfair

[Da Skinna]

I don't like the idea of paying for someone else either, and I think welfare, while needed, shouldn't be abused. I'm not for abuse of the system. I am not for people having to pay more so as to cover for the lazy asses of the few. But I don't think that it is entirely up to them to get off their asses and do things. I don't think most of them think like that at all.

Incentives to get people to work, while making sure there are jobs, and small propelling programs to do that, is a good thing. In that way there is no room for abuse, at least not at foundation level...

[the Black Prince]

hmmm

i see a thread on class, and then people talking about incomes. the two are not necessarily related.

but yes, there are very notable and obvious in the UK.

a room with me, and 2 of my friends right now would include a very rich guy from Ascot and Windsor with a strong southern accent who looks surprised hat everyone doesn't do champaigne lunches regularly, a guy with neutral midlands accent from london, who's fairly standard middle class everything, and a guy with a broud northern accent, from Oldham, who's one step removed from being a chav. clothes, style, mannerisms, etc. pllenty of ways its obvious

[Stalins Ghost]

Of course classes still blight out society!

I go out into the cities, and most of them are made up of a massive amount of poor quality housing, housing people on minimum wage and not making enough to get a decent quality of life. I thank my lucky stars that my family have managed to keep up. I know for a fact that its been a struggle, and a number of times we've stood the chance of going into the red.

The biggest travesty I see are the homeless though. Go into the city and you see them all over the place. They've got no way out. There's just no support for them besides that of underfunded charities. This kind of life leads to all kinds of problems - particuarly drugs related, further driving them into their pit. I myself give them change when I have it. I hate to do it knowing that chances are its going on their next fix, but theres a chance that they really do need money just to see their way into the next day. The government needs to take responsibility.

Then we have upper class snobs. I see them all the time here. Daddy's boys seem to be rather prevalent where I am now, and I hate their throw away attitude to money, spending it on champagne and flash suits to impress others. This kind of thing makes me sick to the bone. It pervades our society like an ever growing cancer. Its one thing to have a high quality of life, its another to grow up wiping your arse with notes. Sickening.

What about the elderly? Too old to work much of the time, they often live horrific existences by our standards. There's terrible reports for some. Hearing about the old dear who was found dead 3 weeks after she'd died is becoming all too common now. There's simply not enough support.

In all honesty, **** the system we have now. It just serves to support the rich. The rich yet richer, the poor can't escape.

[General_Curtis_LeMay]

In all honesty, **** the system we have now. It just serves to support the rich. The rich yet richer, the poor can't escape.

This is not true. the top 1% of our population in the US pays 37.2% of all income taxes remdered unto the governments, both local, state, and federal. The upper 50% of income households pay 96. somthing or another percent of all income taxes (by the way income taxes includes social security, and medicare taxes.)
That is taxation and fair exploitation of the rich, not the poor. SO listen to this, My parents are separated and make very little money, either of them. (Yes, I am still a high schooler), yet I have more money thatn any of my fellows, I posses a superior educvation that 95% of my school (according to the GPA at least), How is this, because I don't blame my poverty on anyone else, take responsibility and work hard at my job, to the extent that I hold position over older people. I have parents withpoverty level income, but yet I exell, haw can this be? If what you and everyone else says is true, its my parents fault.

[Stalins Ghost]

This is not true. the top 1% of our population in the US pays 37.2% of all income taxes remdered unto the governments, both local, state, and federal. The upper 50% of income households pay 96. somthing or another percent of all income taxes (by the way income taxes includes social security, and medicare taxes.)
That is taxation and fair exploitation of the rich, not the poor. SO listen to this, My parents are separated and make very little money, either of them. (Yes, I am still a high schooler), yet I have more money thatn any of my fellows, I posses a superior educvation that 95% of my school (according to the GPA at least), How is this, because I don't blame my poverty on anyone else, take responsibility and work hard at my job, to the extent that I hold position over older people. I have parents withpoverty level income, but yet I exell, haw can this be? If what you and everyone else says is true, its my parents fault.

The tax issue isn't part of the problem though - the problem is that even if a "lower class" citizen is being taxed far less percentage wise, they still don't earn enough to support a decent quality of life.

Here in the UK the benefits system that is designed to relieve this is rife with problems which render it useless. Firstly people are all too willing to abuse the system for all its worth for their own gains - single mothers with 6-7 kids is the common example, but by no means the only one. Then there are those who barely scratch a living, but earn just enough to be ignored completely by the system. So they end up working their whole life for a measly amount, and thanks to the ****ed up benefits system we have, they cannot brake out of the situation while some system abuser rapes the country for benefits while never working. I completely agree with benefits, since I believe that if someone works enough they deserve extra money to respect that effort, no matter how lowly the job may be, so long as they put in the work. Fact is, some people will put in huge amounts of extra work and receive little more than maybe a little overtime pay, not helping their situation at all.

What about the fact that without a fixed address you cannot seek employment? Now thats ****ed up logic.

As for your own successes, its a little different. I'm only at university myself, so I understand your position in a way. Luckily for some, such as yourself, and to be honest me, we've got a good education. Some people simply do not have that positive impact. Some people, thanks to having to live in a rough area cannot send their kids to decent schools because they're outside of the catchment area. The result; they struggle to get educated, and get out of the spiral of lower class life.

I would like to think that yes, things are better these days. Generally speaking, I think slowly the class issue isn't quite so prevalent. I can't speak for the US, but I get the impression that there are some rather awful places to live there in certain parts of the country. But I can't be certain, so I wont offer judgment. Fact is though, there are some people who live a lower standard of life. Thats enough for me to see injustice. Its enough for me to want to help.

Oh, and another thought: remember around 3 billion live under $2 a day. Euro/West-centric views of the world handily forget this. Equality my ass.

[Erik]

SO listen to this, My parents are separated and make very little money, either of them. (Yes, I am still a high schooler), yet I have more money thatn any of my fellows, I posses a superior educvation that 95% of my school (according to the GPA at least), How is this, because I don't blame my poverty on anyone else, take responsibility and work hard at my job, to the extent that I hold position over older people. I have parents withpoverty level income, but yet I exell, haw can this be? If what you and everyone else says is true, its my parents fault.

Let me ask you: who pays for your education?
And who is going to pay for it when you go to college/university?

And I'm not talking about the tuition fees here, they usually don't cover the real expenses of your education.
The real cost of education is somewhere between $10.000 to $30.000 per year.
Do you think you can get a student loan to cover a 5 year $20.000 per year study? that's $100.000.
Or do you think you will be able to pay for it yourself if you only work hard at Burger King?
Remember you also have to pay rent and buy food and clothes, that's at least another $10.000 per year.

Let's face it: if the rich weren't taxed extra to pay for (semi-)public education there would be NO WAY somebody on minimum wage can pay for his/her own university level education.