EB on CryEngine? Unity? Unreal? other game engines?

[Berenike]

Dear E.B.

Just a quick mod-unrelated question. I’m curious if it would be possible to make a game like EB on a different engine like Unity, Unreal, CryEngine etc. I was just thinking hypothetically that if the team had put in all the same effort and all the same time and energy that it has into E.B. II, but into an EBII on a different engine, then what would it look like. Off course it would be totally different because it would not be a total war game, but if it had been in built in of those engines and all of the great ideas and innovative gameplay that the EB team has developed over the years was put into it somehow, how would that look like? I know I asked this question before about E.B. being a game on its own, and the reply was that you would have to build a new engine and it’s not worth the time and expense etc.

So to summarise, my two hypothetical questions are: Could a version of E.B. be built on other engines like Unity, Unreal, CryEngine etc, and my second question is: Would it be better to build a version of EB on one of those engines or design a completely new game engine?
I’m just curious, that’s all. I am currently studying Game Design as a hobby and was thinking about it. It would be a shame if all of EB’s work became forgotten in the sands of time and the declining TWC community. It would be cool if all of the knowledge and work based on the Hellenistic Age (even if it’s the just sheer amount of historical facts and information about the units) could be passed on or saved in someway for future generations of gamers, and it looks like it would have to be on a non-total war engine given the way it’s going. I would love if in the future, after EB II is done, an EB III could become a reality with a new generation of programmers, artists etc born out of the legacy of the EB project and in honour of the EB 1 and EB 2 teams and their ground-breaking achievements. I would volunteer immediately

Anyway, whatever the outcome, I just want to say thank for making an incredible game(s) and giving me many hours of joy. EBII is by far my favourite strategy game
B

P.S. Below I found a historical game on CryEngine that could be a possible inspiration for an E.B. game, although it is a multiplayer, first-person shooter

https://www.cryengine.com/showcase/war-of-rights

https://warofrights.com/default.aspx

[z3n]

That would require programmers and software engineers. Also the graphics assets would have to be constructed as well, in general making an entirely new game is even more complicated than a modification of a game (i.e. a modification based on a previously designed game engine). Unfortunately CryEngine is primarily just a graphics engine, to my understanding and unfortunately a game with battles designed to the current specifications (EB's with thousands of troops) in terms of numbers would likely be beyond CryEngine due to its graphical fidelity. Perhaps the AC Unity engine may have been able to handle it to an extent with some tweaks but the rights to that are locked down as far as I know.

[Berenike]

Hi z3n, thanks for the quick reply

So thanks for clarifying the capabilities of the "ready made" game engines online. It looks like this time again the most logical answer is to design a new game engine from scratch. So, as a novice game designer I'm just curious, how would one go about it? What is involved? What does one study? How much would it cost? (let's say hypothetically to higher a team of engineers to specifically design an E.B. capable engine). Granted though, you would need to clarify exactly what an E.B. engine exactly needs to be capable of/what is its purpose/aims/goals/designs. What do you think the price range would be? Somewhere between £100,000 - £1,000000?

I know its a very long, boring and arduous task but if there are so many games out there with their own engines, it must be at least doable, albeit with a large team of (ideally) paid software developers and programmers. But in terms of funding, could it be possible to make "dumbed-down" versions of E.B. with the online engines, let's say just historical battles, even in 2D graphics for mobiles/tablets to attract funds and investors (like a publisher), given EB's great reputation and all.

Anyway it seems it would have to be an indie project, but that market is on the rise. I guess looking back 10 years, if we had of started designing (or funding) a new game engine 10 years ago, imagine where we would be today? (Not to detract from EBII off course!)

[romanius24]

It would be easier to mod or develop on an existing engine that is close to what EB is aiming for.
Total War fits best but also the Mount And Blade engine.

I believe that the Vikings expansion for Warband was actually made by a group of modders that were allowed to officially release the thing.

[z3n]

Hi z3n, thanks for the quick reply

So thanks for clarifying the capabilities of the "ready made" game engines online. It looks like this time again the most logical answer is to design a new game engine from scratch. So, as a novice game designer I'm just curious, how would one go about it? What is involved? What does one study? How much would it cost? (let's say hypothetically to higher a team of engineers to specifically design an E.B. capable engine). Granted though, you would need to clarify exactly what an E.B. engine exactly needs to be capable of/what is its purpose/aims/goals/designs. What do you think the price range would be? Somewhere between £100,000 - £1,000000?

I know its a very long, boring and arduous task but if there are so many games out there with their own engines, it must be at least doable, albeit with a large team of (ideally) paid software developers and programmers. But in terms of funding, could it be possible to make "dumbed-down" versions of E.B. with the online engines, let's say just historical battles, even in 2D graphics for mobiles/tablets to attract funds and investors (like a publisher), given EB's great reputation and all.

Anyway it seems it would have to be an indie project, but that market is on the rise. I guess looking back 10 years, if we had of started designing (or funding) a new game engine 10 years ago, imagine where we would be today? (Not to detract from EBII off course!)

Well, to do it right you'd be looking at a couple million at the very least.


edit:
to give you a rough idea, the witcher 3, one of my favourite games cost $81 million in USD to make. And that's with a dedicated, passionate studio, who may also have been paid less than the standard rate. GTA 5 may have cost $250 million USD, and SWTOR $200 million.

[Grimmy]

Europa Barbarorum, the MMORPG.

We need that.

[Berenike]

to give you a rough idea, the witcher 3, one of my favourite games cost $81 million in USD to make. And that's with a dedicated, passionate studio, who may also have been paid less than the standard rate. GTA 5 may have cost $250 million USD, and SWTOR $200 million.

The games you listed are pretty top-end though, to be honest. I get it if you think, “Well heck if we are going to go through all of this trouble, then why not make the best and most future proof game possible”. But a $250,000,000 budget is very unrealistic to achieve without any other titles behind you.

My vision of creating an EB game (engine) goes like this (let's say over 10 years):

EBII is completed and the team takes a well earned break. Some leave forever, others maintain dev support for the mod

A group of dedicated designers gets together and draws out all of the goals and plans/techs and specs for a new engine. This could include non-EB people as well who may be interested in developing a new RTS game engine and have similar goals to the EB people

A marketing savy individual or team uses the greatness of EB I and II to attract potential investors or potential engineers/programmers for an EB game if its own. Let’s say universities and the military are interested because in enables students, historians and officers alike to actually play as Hannibal in the battles of Zama, Cannae etc in the exact historical circumstances, and it appeals to engineers because it has some groundbreaking possibilities (real-world terrain etc)

Programmers and Software Engineers, when found and brought on board (maybe 1 or 2), work on building aspects of a new engine for free (volunteers)

In the meantime, a crowdfund campaign is organised to raise money for more or better engineers

Once a stable version of the engine is complete, the remaining funds go into designing an actual prototype game

A small prototype is developed on a shoe-string budget and it attracts a publishing or development company, or the team goes it alone and maintains complete control

Note: The engine does not have to be EB specific necessarily. It could be an engine designed to be the most capable RTS game engine out there, and therefore several people interested in making or bringing back the RTS genre may become interested if they can use the engine as well. Let’s say a sort of “Unity engine specifically for RTS” type of thing. The "engine project" could be a separate thing altogether, and then EB could come in and build something on top of it later down the line

I guess talent can be sourced easily enough. What it really boils down to is financing the project. Some people put their entire security on the line by taking massive bank loans and investing all of their savings. But I don’t that is very smart. Building up small amounts of donations, contributions etc over time from multiple donors/asset would be safer. Thing is though, most “first games” don’t have an already large fan-base and support behind them. Usually a couple of dudes in a basement for years. But maybe EB is different? Anyway, I'm just spitballing...

[Cohors_Evocata]

Honestly, I doubt there ever will be an EB III, at least it we're talking about one made by current members of the team. This mod (EB II) has now been in development for about nine years (things started back in 2007!) and it still isn't finished. There were times when the mod almost died from a lack of progress and active members, but is has persevered... And yet I doubt many of us would be willing to stay on for another round. I can only speak for myself, but after I became a full member a few months ago I could finally see the amount of plans and concepts waiting to be implemented, I was both incredibly excited and shocked by the sheer size of it all. EB II isn't finished and I doubt it will be in the next few years. I have even less confidence that many of us would be willing to start all over again afterwards, even for a monetary reward. I know I wouldn't.

[alin]

Honestly, I doubt there ever will be an EB III, at least it we're talking about one made by current members of the team. This mod (EB II) has now been in development for about nine years (things started back in 2007!) and it still isn't finished. There were times when the mod almost died from a lack of progress and active members, but is has persevered... And yet I doubt many of us would be willing to stay on for another round. I can only speak for myself, but after I became a full member a few months ago I could finally see the amount of plans and concepts waiting to be implemented, I was both incredibly excited and shocked by the sheer size of it all. EB II isn't finished and I doubt it will be in the next few years. I have even less confidence that many of us would be willing to start all over again afterwards, even for a monetary reward. I know I wouldn't.

I've been with the mod from year one and EB never "almost died", however at times the manpower was really limited that affected the pace of progress and the release date by a couple of years.
We really wanted to beat the RTW2 release date by at least a year ahead, but we never found enough volunteers to help us do that.
Thus in early some of the members had to do a huge amount of work(and most of it) like: Gustave, JMRC, V.T. Marvin, Haithabas, Kull and other.

[Cohors_Evocata]

I've been with the mod from year one and EB never "almost died", however at times the manpower was really limited that affected the pace of progress and the release date by a couple of years.
We really wanted to beat the RTW2 release date by at least a year ahead, but we never found enough volunteers to help us do that.
Thus in early some of the members had to do a huge amount of work(and most of it) like: Gustave, JMRC, V.T. Marvin, Haithabas, Kull and other.

That the mod almost died was the impression I got from several posts both internal and external (c.q. from the EB 2.0 release announcement "Sometimes work was fast and the mod took great strides; at other times, unforseen bugs, hard-coded limits, or just that small distraction called life stepped in and brought the mod to the shores of the river Styx.") Nevertheless, I may have been mistaken. My post wasn't intended to disrespect the great effort the team put into the mod, I'm wholly aware what a titanic effort it was.

[Berenike]

Honestly, I doubt there ever will be an EB III, at least it we're talking about one made by current members of the team. This mod (EB II) has now been in development for about nine years (things started back in 2007!) and it still isn't finished. There were times when the mod almost died from a lack of progress and active members, but is has persevered... And yet I doubt many of us would be willing to stay on for another round. I can only speak for myself, but after I became a full member a few months ago I could finally see the amount of plans and concepts waiting to be implemented, I was both incredibly excited and shocked by the sheer size of it all. EB II isn't finished and I doubt it will be in the next few years. I have even less confidence that many of us would be willing to start all over again afterwards, even for a monetary reward. I know I wouldn't.

Ah well then, I never expected any current member of the EB team to go for another round and EBIII. It’s understandable. 10+ years of hard, hard unpaid work and a roller coaster ride of whether even the mod, let alone a full game, was going to get made at all. I was just thinking more along the lines that a future generation (like myself) would come along and keep the torch going forward. Perhaps if in the distant future an indie game studio, with an engine already built, might come along and make a “new” EB. That is, to make an entirely separate game born out of the legacy of and love for EB.

[Berenike]

He guys, check out my other thread. I found a game that could serve as a blueprint, a model for a potential EB game. It only covers battles, but it could be a good idea for a prototype EB game (to display the richness of the units etc). And I doubt it cost $250 million USD to make. In fact, this is exactly how I found EB I, by stumbling upon their website

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15038911

http://xiiicentury.1cpublishing.eu/

[z3n]

It's a nice idea and don't let me discourage you if you want to try it. Like I said however, to do it right you need several million, there have been great games like King Arthur II but they had their flaws in terms of hardware issues, CTD's and other pesky hard to track bugs due to the wide range of hardware their audience had. Not to mention frame rate issues/graphics problems and the like. Therefore they never really made their way into the wider world. It's rather hard to get a good looking, relatively bug free, historical/feature filled game like EBIII would strive to aim for. Not to mention the difficulty there is in getting a rather hard working individual in the first place who cares about what they're doing, people work very hard when it's their hobby but when it's their job it takes a rarer individual.

[Johnadiw26]

I love your idea @Berenike

Sent from my Smartfren Andromax AD688G using Tapatalk

[cmlax999]

What's the argument (of course, notwithstanding the problems of a team committing to making it) against using the R2TW engine for EBIII, again? The map?

[Hohenstaufen234]

What's the argument (of course, notwithstanding the problems of a team committing to making it) against using the R2TW engine for EBIII, again? The map?

One argument would be the restricted modding capabilites that Rome 2 and Attila has. CA has basically made the games harder to mod so

[z3n]

It's easier not harder to mod most things in RTW2 actually (especially units).

However there are a few things that are not moddable or hard to mod namely the map and there are features which are lacking like the family tree (i.e. the UI is not moddable except for retextures), 'real' traits and ancillaries, a scripting system which doesn't require a degree (or a lot of time spent studying it and the possibilities) and the difficulty of getting the team to work on an entirely new game. In short, everyone feels comfortable with M2TW right now and has no desire to move.

[gustave]

For my part I can't stand Rome 2's game mechanics. Sure the graphics are much better and making units is ridiculously easy but I just find the game not fun, even with mods ...

[Grimmy]

It's easier not harder to mod most things in RTW2 actually (especially units).

However there are a few things that are not moddable or hard to mod namely the map and there are features which are lacking like the family tree (i.e. the UI is not moddable except for retextures), 'real' traits and ancillaries, a scripting system which doesn't require a degree (or a lot of time spent studying it and the possibilities) and the difficulty of getting the team to work on an entirely new game. In short, everyone feels comfortable with M2TW right now and has no desire to move.

Even if the new game was... say... smeared with an alluringly scented musk oil and placed upwind?

[Brihentin13]

This is a good idea, just incredibly difficult to actually do. If you're a really dedicated fan and can find like-minded people, you have a shot. Mordhau is an upcoming game designed by veteran Chivalry: Medieval Warfare players, so fan-made games can happen. We do live in the era of kickstarters.