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Thread: Battles are weird

  1. #21

    Default Re: Battles are weird

    I've seen only the front line of infantry charging in M2TW and some of it's other mods; it's not unique to EBII. Infantry just all-around work better in R:TW, imo.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    But also, compared to other M2TW mods, or even vanilla. I haven't actually seen any other cases where this happens, just the front line or so charging and the rest of the unit not charging with it. But this doesn't seem to consistently happen in EBII either, so kinda weird. Wonder if its an animation thing or what?
    It may be because because other mods have severely shortened the charge distances to units, meaning that they only charge when they are nearly on top of each other. This prevents the frontline troops only engaging the enemy, since the rest of the unit won't be left behind from the charge. But from what I've seen it's a flaw in the mtw2 engine, and it appears in vanilla as well.

    Example:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Close charging units
    Last edited by TheCataphract; June 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    I see, makes sense I guess. But in that image, it does look like at least the rest of the charging unit is running with and right behind the charging front line, if not raising their weapons themselves. But they end up where the fighting is and look like a cohesive unit during the charge, which is good enough for me. I feel like what I've seen in EB is literally only the front lines running forward at all while large blocks of the unit simply remain where they were when the charger order was given. I'm pretty sure I don't see that , or not very often, elsewhere. I'll do some more mindful testing sometime if for no other reason than my own peace of mind.... make sure I'm not going crazy. Yet.

  4. #24
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Unfortunately charging is an engine problem which can be observed in any mod. The reason being they had to change the underlying animation system to a degree, charges operate like this. The charge is ordered, the charging unit marks the unit in the enemy formation it was going to charge at and then charges. If the other unit moves from that position during that timeframe the charge won't update in realtime unless certain pathfinding values are changed however this has the adverse effect of making cavalry charges weaker due to underlying engine mechanics in terms of how cavalry charges work. As you all have reminded me of the problem yet again, I'll see what we can do about it.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    the charging unit marks the unit in the enemy formation it was going to charge at and then charges. If the other unit moves from that position during that timeframe the charge won't update in realtime
    Funny you should mention this, I just alt+tabbed out of a test battle to post something and it's relevant. Custom battle though, so I don't know if it'll be counted as evidence necessarily.

    The relevant part is, I had two units the enemy had one. Had my first unit engage them, so lines are fighting then I have my other unit circle around back and charge. So the enemy unit was already engaged with my unit, not moving away or receiving any different order ostensibly. Just engaged in fighting. But my unit that charged their rear ran kinda close by, then the bulk of the unit stopped a few meters back while only a handful of the frontish line soldiers continued running into the fray. After they had engaged, the rest of the unit kind of ambled on over into the fighting to catch up with them. So in this case at least, it doesn't seem like the enemy unit they were charging would have received orders in that timeframe to cause pathfinding issues. They were just engaged in a 1v1 battle. I suppose it's still possible they got orders in the middle of that to compensate for the incoming charge they saw in the back, but I doubt it based on their behavior, weren't shifting position at all or doing anything other than they had been. I'dunno. Weird. And it might just be a javelin-equipped unit thing by the way. Hoplites for example seem to charge as one unit. Speaking of, gonna alt tab back in and test that theory.

    -edit-
    Yup, hoplites charge as a unit.

    Also, question related to charging. How come when you single click a unit to attack, in EBII they walk towards them and don't ever end up charging but in others, they'll walk up to a point, then when they get to a certain close enough distance to begin a charge, they all automatically run and charge? I'm curious in general about this, but also who knows, might have some relation to the issue?

    -edit2-
    Ok, definitely a missile+melee armed unit thing. Used a gallic swordsmen type, alt+clicked to charge to forego the missile phase, same thing happens every time. They run up to a point, full stop, only the officers and standard bearer on the side keep running, then the rest start moving again. Spearmen or other swordsmen or anything without javelins or pila or whatever don't do this.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    So the unit had been running toward enemy with the charge order, stopped where you see them while the three dudes kept running, then after another second or two the rest of the unit moved toward enemy again.

  6. #26
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    I hate quick battles, there aren't enough tactical decisions in a quick melee. It often feels like you won by mistake rather than a strategy, i.e. I frontally charged my knights and suddenly the enemy fled before me. Let's repeat this over and over again. Therefore I'm pretty happy with what our unit mechanics guys have done (QS & Ibrahim) in fact I've been testing 2.2b recently and been quite impressed with what they've managed to get out of the engine.
    I couldn't agree more! I think in terms of overall battle tactics, the battle map is a thrill ride! The AI is super smart and constantly testing your weaknesses and defenses, whether it's a siege or a field battle. Even when you're the one besieging the enemy, they're still cocky and desperate enough to try and fight to the last man, to find any way they can to outmaneuver you. I love it! Certainly keeps me busy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    But also, compared to other M2TW mods, or even vanilla. I haven't actually seen any other cases where this happens, just the front line or so charging and the rest of the unit not charging with it. But this doesn't seem to consistently happen in EBII either, so kinda weird. Wonder if its an animation thing or what?
    Nope. I've seen it in other M2TW mods. I think it is a deliberate design of the original game makers, by the way, in order to thwart you and your army when you're being too successful or outnumber the enemy drastically and the numbers are totally on your side. When victory is all but guaranteed, the game likes to throw these little cheap shots at you. When you see that happening, keep your general out of harms way, because the game LOVES to kill your general under these circumstances.

    In short, find everyone who designed M2TW, find their wives, their children, their loved ones, extended relatives and friends, and give them all a "good talking to" in an intervention type format, preferably while armed with an assault rifle.

    Last edited by Roma_Victrix; June 29, 2016 at 03:15 PM. Reason: perhaps a bit too extreme

  7. #27

    Default Re: Battles are weird

    It's funny how this topic is raised again since they said there is nothing they can do to it.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I've seen it in other M2TW mods.
    You're right. Just tried a different mod, saw something similar though not quite as pronounced. Oh well!

  9. #29

    Default Re: Battles are weird

    I think its a speed thing. I tested it in custom a while ago and wondered why it seemed inconsistent in the mod.

    Units with fast movement speed seem to charge much better while most "slow-mo" infantry will stop and only a few soldiers charge but there might be other reasons too.

    I also read something a long time ago that it might be possible to remove/replace certain animations so that the soldiers dont start walking backwards. Might have been on a TATW or SS submod.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    I like lenghty, sweaty, hardy, tiresome, trench-like battles. But that's just me
    I did this in 2007, i liked Creedence and i liked Europa Barbarorum. Decided then to make a homage to both of them. Made with Paint and Windows Movie Maker, the perfect weapons for a kid with these particular tastes, hell yeah!

  11. #31

    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Since the topic of this thread has drifted to how units are behaving in battle, I would like to talk about the weird behavior of cavalry when running down routing enemy troops. Sometimes when I command a unit of cavalry to go after a routing unit they just run beside them and don't really do anything. Other times my cavalry becomes super spread out when chasing the enemy and they hardly capture any of them. I do notice though when my cavalry maintains a tightly packed formation, they seem to chase down enemy troops perfectly fine. I have noticed similar problems like this in other mods but not to this extent.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Battles are weird

    I agree with friday there. Cavalry chasing routing units has very inconsistent efficacy. Sometimes they stay packed and run over the enemy contstantly wiping them extremelly fast while other times msot of the unit is ether on one side or at the rear and they only sloowly take down some enemy units.

    Happens both ways to the same cavalry type so I dont think is directly related to the cavalry type but its behaviour mostly.

    We will either find a way, or make one.


  13. #33
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Yep, I can second (third?) the above problem. I don't have such a struggle to round up routing units with any other mod, potentially barring 1648.

  14. #34
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    For some reason I just can't help but read the title of this thread in the voice of Ralph Wiggum.


  15. #35

    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Question, does only having the front units attack affect the result? I feel like my forces are handicapped because of this...

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Quote Originally Posted by eschiver View Post
    Question, does only having the front units attack affect the result? I feel like my forces are handicapped because of this...
    If you mean specifically during a charge, a workaround could be ordering your unit to just move past the one you want to attack so they all stay grouped together while moving towards, then last second before reaching the enemy give the attack command. Though you'll probably lose out on charge bonuses this way because they might already end up engaged, or too close to charge, or who knows. Could end up as being more of a handicap in the end, but I'dunno haven't tested.

    If you mean during already engaged battles between units, then it'd be no more of a handicap for you than the enemy unit since both of their front lines are the (almost) only ones fighting.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Battles have always been weird, they 've always been the weirdest of places. All social behaviour codes are pretty much inversed there. You'll only meet people that ever wants you dead or just don't care you dead if they get what they want in the process. The only friends you'll make there are to share the worst memories a man could share and will just encourage you to loose the little consciousness that remains through heavy use of drugs. The only good thing is once in a battle youu won't care you can't put your hand on your favourite sweater, or that somebody stole your bike. In fact, you'll get one of ther strongest reality check up you can have on this planet and for free. What I mean is that if EB2 battles feels weird, then it just means the team successed.

    BUT if they happen to be really really slow, like we know M2TW battles can be... then maybe, Granto can design us a nice little faster battles submod like the one he did on IB2. IB2 battles, with this submod really had the best of pace (you can try and see by yourself btw, IB2 is an amazing mod) BUT if it's an animation problem then, things will get far more complicate. BUT maybe I'm wrong. BUT I like how it sounds, but. BUT, just but. BUT, and I like to write it. BUT, but but but.
    Last edited by Yerevan; July 01, 2016 at 12:37 AM.
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  18. #38

  19. #39

    Default Re: Battles are weird

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    If you mean specifically during a charge, a workaround could be ordering your unit to just move past the one you want to attack so they all stay grouped together while moving towards, then last second before reaching the enemy give the attack command. Though you'll probably lose out on charge bonuses this way because they might already end up engaged, or too close to charge, or who knows. Could end up as being more of a handicap in the end, but I'dunno haven't tested.

    If you mean during already engaged battles between units, then it'd be no more of a handicap for you than the enemy unit since both of their front lines are the (almost) only ones fighting.
    You'll lose the charge bonus, but it can be useful by forcing more units and their animations to actually hit targets. I do it all the time with cav and with infantry during sieges and things. Classic M2TW tactic, because of the absolutely ridiculous link between successful animation and successful attack is(again RTW is much better in this dept. with regards to battles)
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; July 01, 2016 at 08:56 AM.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Battles are weird

    So I finally could play a couple battles with this version of EB2 and I must take back what I said (based on the previous version) that battles were a tad slow. EB2's battle's pace is just right !

    But for newcomers, maybe it has to be explained they are not meant to be played like contemporean TW titles at all ! It's not a drag and click race, or clickfest ! I understand how weird it must seem to somebody who never played any M2TW or RTW before.

    There's an inertia in M2TW's battles which might not have been develloped on purpose (I mean it certainly is in the continuity of RTW, and it might come from the heritage of previous TW titles, but I suppose it mainly comes from the engine's limitations) but this inertia happens to be a perfectly "realistic" rendition of ancient warfare and the absence of modern communication means on the ancient battlegrounds. It's actually perfect for the sake of simulation.

    When I see Multiplayer R2TW players issueing different orders to an unit every second I can't help finding it absurd. A fraction of second is a modern warfare, unity of time, that's all. Imagine a hundred men charging in a direction, then stopping all in the same time and walking the other way ; I call them robots, not hoplites.

    Personally, with most M2TW mods I just issue orders every minute, the maximum would be every 30 seconds. For adjustements, like the way a phalanx will present itself to the front I might do rectifications in seconds but if I send an order to an unit like go there or charge here I don't cancel or change it 10 seconds later. Once the order is issued, my unit might be intercepted, then be it, I should have been able to anticipate !

    It's all about anticipation, not clickn' speed ! This way, the AI is a bit advantaged, but knowing its limitations (despite modder's great work) it's only fair. And then I have more time to contemplate the marvellous models and textures. As the human player, you must count only on the way you deploy your units and the way you anticipate the enemy moves.

    I must say I didn't always play M2TW battles this way. It's just when coming back from R2TW to M2TW I realised this game was giving me the opportunity to play battles in a "realistic" way. And this is how I discovered it was actually possible to loose battles in M2TW. If I want a click sprint race I have total warhammer.
    Last edited by Yerevan; July 05, 2016 at 03:04 AM.
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