Clearing Up Misconceptions about IRAN

[Col. Tartleton]

That is from our Declaration of Independence. A letter written by Thomas Jefferson on behalf of the Continental Congress.

Jefferson, our third president, was in many ways the architect of secularism. He expanded the religious toleration that existed in much of Europe from the various Christians sects to the universal principles that included Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Atheists.

He like our second president John Adams was a scholar and made an effort to read the Koran. They found it reprehensible but still felt that Muslims were entitled to the universal application of civil rights. Proponents of secularism acknowledged that Muslims could serve in Congress if elected and that there should be no religious test, only the requirement that they swear to uphold our law and values. It would be up to the electorate to determine whether or not these people were capable of differentiating between secular and religious law, just as with Christian officials. We have done so.

It was this man who was forced to go to war with Muslim extremists in Tripoli that were attacking American shipping.

America has been resisting Islamic attacks for 215 years. You will not win.

[Heidar]

That is from our Declaration of Independence. A letter written by Thomas Jefferson on behalf of the Continental Congress.

oh really?then he was a pretty nice guy if he really believed in those words.

Jefferson, our third president, was in many ways the architect of secularism. He expanded the religious toleration that existed in much of Europe from the various Christians sects to the universal principles that included Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Atheists.

The (unchanged) religions make us go to the right path not to avoid that.

They found it reprehensible

Really?they found the Gods words reprehensible?

Proponents of secularism acknowledged that Muslims could serve in Congress if elected and that there should be no religious test, only the requirement that they swear to uphold our law and values. It would be up to the electorate to determine whether or not these people were capable of differentiating between secular and religious law.

We believe our religion is a perfect plan for humanity in every aspects of life so we make our laws by our religion.

America has been resisting Islamic attacks for 215 years. You will not win.

You mean at the countries they colonized?we are not like we were before .many things have changed nowadays. If it is about oppression I have many things to say about it.

You made me confused first now I want to do it too.
Do you really believe you Americans and UN are doing the right thing to the world?

[Col. Tartleton]

oh really?then he was a pretty nice guy if he really believed in that words.

I think the only obvious criticism of Jefferson is that he believed in a gradual emancipation of slavery followed by repatriation. As the leader of the southern party Jefferson campaigned against expansions of slavery but was afraid that abolition where slavery already existed would be rejected if imposed by the northern party led by Alexander Hamilton and would have to come at the local level in each state to prevent secession and potentially a war. This of course proved to be the case, but largely because his party fulfilled the prophecy and declared secession before Lincoln had even taken office. This was particularly foolish as Lincoln held the same views as Jefferson and was only able to abolish slavery using the executive powers and rump congress that had been created by the secession and civil war.

Slavery was considered the sort of barbarism that Muslims practiced.

The (unchanged) religions make us go to the right path not to avoid that.

The Quran was finished being written some twenty years after Mohammad's death based on memory. Saul of Tarsus was writing about Jesus of Nazareth within the same time frame and the Gospel of Mark was formally written about equally after Paul. So twenty years later is perfect but forty years isn't?

What you actually mean is that the Quran is different from the Bible and therefore the Bible is wrong because the Quran said it is true.

Really?they found the Gods words reprehensible?

No, they found Mohammad reprehensible.

We believe our religion is a perfect plan for humanity in every aspects of life so we make our laws by our religion.

You have the vanity to say all humans must do as you say. We have the audacity to refuse.

You mean at the countries they colonized.If it is about oppression I have many things to say about it. You made me confused first now I want to do it too. Do you really believe you Americans and UN are doing the right thing to the world?

You're the imperialists. You're trying to colonize us. What choice do we have? The Jihad will not end until every infidel is killed, enslaved, or converted. There will be no peace.



I have no problem saying that Shia are less dangerous than Sunnis. Iran is less of a threat to the west than Arabia and Pakistan. However that is to say that the world fought for by the Italian Fascists was more tolerable than that of German Nazis. It remains a world I will not accept.

[Heidar]

Slavery was considered the sort of barbarism that Muslims practiced.

Every era had its own trait.we(shias) know slavery a barbaric act too.after all we(shias even all muslims) have a very better history in this case compared to you.we didn't enslave the whole Africa!
our Imams were renowned for liberating slaves by buying them and setting them free.

The Quran was finished being written some twenty years after Mohammad's death based on memory. Saul of Tarsus was writing about Jesus of Nazareth within the same time frame and the Gospel of Mark was formally written about equally after Paul. So twenty years later is perfect but forty years isn't?
What you actually mean is that the Quran is different from the Bible and therefore the Bible is wrong because the Quran said it is true.

Quran is written by Imam Ali and he was doing it when the prophet was alive.he finished its compilation after the prophets death.The prophet himself ordered Imam Ali how to write and collect all those parts together and we have his hand wrote Quran in museum:

How you can compare 4 gospels with 1 Quran that every muslim accepts?

No, they found Mohammad reprehensible.

they found what?

You have the vanity to say all humans must do as you say. We have the audacity to refuse.

we have some red lines to keep the people in the right way.We don't refuse our creator's orders.

You're the imperialists. You're trying to colonize us. What choice do we have? The Jihad will not end until every infidel is killed, enslaved, or converted. There will be no peace.

Very very huge claims specially from an American!
So you say that You had the choice to loot and rape countries,killing civilians,using nuclear weapons and Agent orange against innocent people , providing Saddam with chemical weapons and blowing up Iranian airliner in Persian gulf and so on? Am I right?
"The best predictor of future is past behavior" Dr.Phil
Just look at shia history and yours and tell me what you see?
Do you support Israel and Saudi wahhabies ?
If your answer is yes I'll list their crimes with pictures this time.
We won't act against infidels unless they start to act against us.I must add this we don't know people who worship the God as infidels.We wont do the horrible things that you said.Islam is the religion of clement and mercy and It is forbidden to harm the civilians according to the Islamic obligations.

I've heard about this before.we are trying to avoid the war come to our borders too!

you're kidding right?




you're also kidding right?

first realize that jihad does not necessarily mean violent terrorism, if you've arrived at this point then daesh and hezbollah have succeeded in enabling misinterpretations, jihad can also mean an internal struggle when a believer's faith starts to wane, and also resistance against those that would not permit them to practice Islam

basically, religious persecutors like Trump and Ted Cruz actually lead more Muslims to jihad because they present a real threat to their ability to practice Islam

I won't answer to you.

[Col. Tartleton]

Every era had its own trait.we(shias) know slavery a barbaric act too.after all we(shias even all muslims) have a very better history in this case compared to you.we didn't enslave the whole Africa!
our Imams were renowned for liberating slaves by buying them and setting them free.

I was talking about 19th century American views of the Ottomans.

Quran is written by Imam Ali and he was doing it when the prophet was alive.he finished its compilation after the prophets death.The prophet himself ordered Imam Ali how to write and collect all those parts together and we have his hand wrote Quran in museum:

Zayd ibn Thabit wrote the Quran. Ali copied the manuscript and his has survived.

How you can compare 4 gospels with 1 Quran that every muslim accepts?

Every Christian accepts the four gospels.

they found what?

He was a dick.

we have some red lines to keep the people in the right way.We don't refuse our creator's orders.

It's only a novel.

Very very huge claims specially from an American!
So you say that You had the choice to loot and rape countries,killing civilians,using nuclear weapons and Agent orange against innocent people , providing Saddam with chemical weapons and blowing up Iranian airliner in Persian gulf and so on? Am I right?

In most cases Americans have done remarkably less than we could have or ought to.

"The best predictor of future is past behavior" Dr.Phil
Just look at shia history and yours and tell me what you see?

The third most peaceful and reasonable part of the middle east after Israel and Turkey? Arguably the most peaceful but less reasonable.

Do you support Israel and Saudi wahhabies ?

No, I think moving to one of the most anti Semitic places on earth was probably a bad decision by the Zionists but they had an iron will and the Palestine belongs to them now. I think Gaza will always seek violence and should probably be destroyed, its people scattered to the winds, and replaced with Jews. I think the West Bank should be free of Jewish settlement and left to self govern as a protectorate of Israel.

No I don't like Saudis. They're the most chauvinistic new money fanatic bastards in the world. Unfortunately they've bought our friendship.

If your answer is yes I'll list their crimes with pictures this time.
We won't act against infidels unless they start to act against us.I must add this we don't know people who worship the God as infidels.We wont do the horrible things that you said.Islam is the religion of clement and mercy and It is forbidden to harm the civilians according to the Islamic obligations.

We will have to agree to disagree. Mohammad was in my opinion a very impressive dark age king. Ali may even have been a good king, he seems like a better man than Mohammad.

Mohammad is about as convincing a prophet as the Mormon Joseph Smith.

I've heard about this before.we are trying to avoid the war come to our borders too!

I'd like to be allies with Iran. I'd love Iran to fix itself. Neither of these require us to fight.

[zarmehr]

Some of your impressions about islam is from perverted interpretation of Islam like Isis,those son of ,they are not muslim.I am telling you that islam has forbidden killing people or every barbaric act you think.But still it seems some of you more interested to insult while we say we are not like you think.

[Infidel144]

I am telling you that islam has forbidden killing people or every barbaric act you think.

Interesting. So Al Tawba 9.5: "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Take them and confine them, then lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and establish the prayer and pay the obligatory charity, let them go their way. Allah is Forgiving and the Most Merciful."
Kill [faoqtuloo/qatala/qatl] the mushrikun until they convert...
and 9.29:
"Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the Book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated."
And again with the qatala/qatl this time the jews and christians until they submit to the rule of Islam and pay the jizya (or alternatively convert).

[zarmehr]

Interesting. So Al Tawba 9.5: "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Take them and confine them, then lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and establish the prayer and pay the obligatory charity, let them go their way. Allah is Forgiving and the Most Merciful."
Kill [faoqtuloo/qatala/qatl] the mushrikun until they convert...
and 9.29:
"Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the Book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated."
And again with the qatala/qatl this time the jews and christians until they submit to the rule of Islam and pay the jizya (or alternatively convert).

Ahhhh........i'm really sorry my friend.There's an misunderstanding or you try to the theard.Those parts of Quran speaks about the infidels who are hostile to Muslims throughout history.we call them [kafare harbi/کافر حربی/those infidels who fight with muslims]. Of cource there is also another groups of infidels or [People of the Book/اهل کتاب/ahle ketab] that muslims are trade with them and some times they are ally with muslims in their wars and even we allow to marry with them.It seems you still didnt saw those parts about the friendship with other religions in Quran.

Still proselytizing instead of making legitimate geopolitical or socioeconomic points? Then no more kiddie gloves.


You really need to be conscious of your audience. You're not talking to fellow Iranians, you're talking to the rest of the planet. The more you make arguments based on your religious beliefs, the more you'll keep turning people against having any sympathy for you or your country.


For starters, we are not inferior to you because of our love of pleasure and luxury. We don't see the avoidance of luxury as a mark of virtue, we see it as the mark of a good slave. The western world will never be slaves. Especially not to religion, and especially not to a religion most of them see as outside their own cultures, such as Islam.


When you try to convince people to be sympathetic to Iran with arguments based in religion, you actually tend to make us more eager to replace your government with a sane and secular one sooner rather than later.

Unfortunatly some of posts about islam makes us to answer them otherwise as the thread name implies its about clearing misconceptions about iran and really some despicable and offensive posts makes us feel bad about Westerners.

[Infidel144]

Ahhhh........i'm really sorry my friend.There's an misunderstanding or you try to [****] the theard.Those parts of Quran speaks about the infidels who are hostile to Muslims throughout history.we call them [kafare harbi/کافر حربی/those infidels who fight with muslims].

[side note, using swear words such as you did above is frowned upon by the moderators and may result in administrative actions, you may wish to edit your post accordingly]
You initially wrote: "I am telling you that islam has forbidden killing people or every barbaric act you think."
I just gave two verses in which muslims are commanded to kill unbelievers until they convert or submit and pay the jizya. Also, you need to support your assertion, since your simple assertion is not evidence of your claim.

Of cource there is also another groups of infidels or [People of the Book/اهل کتاب/ahle ketab] that muslims are trade with them and some times they are ally with muslims in their wars and even we allow to marry with them.It seems you still didnt saw those parts about the friendship with other religions in Quran.

I just quoted 9:29 which says to fight (qatala/kill, massacre, slay) the People of the Book until they submit.
Friendship, allies? Perhaps you can quote ayah 51 from Al Maida for us?

Earlier you had stated: "The prophet said:if you kill an innocent person is like you've killed every human in the world."
How about quoting the whole ayah for us, and the following ayah as well?

[Infidel144]

I just gave two verses in which muslims are commanded to kill unbelievers until they convert or submit and pay the jizya. Also, you need to support your assertion, since your simple assertion is not evidence of your claim.


I just quoted 9:29 which says to fight (qatala/kill, massacre, slay) the People of the Book until they submit.
Friendship, allies? Perhaps you can quote ayah 51 from Al Maida for us?

As zarmehr did not provide the requested verses. I shall:
5.51:
Believers, do not take the Jews and Christians as allies. They are allies with one another. Whoever of you takes them as an ally shall become one of them. God does not guide the wrongdoers.

Earlier you had stated: "The prophet said:if you kill an innocent person is like you've killed every human in the world."
How about quoting the whole ayah for us, and the following ayah as well?

And here:
5.32:
That was why We wrote for the Children of Israel that who ever killed a soul, except for a soul slain, or for sedition in the earth, it should be considered as though he had killed all mankind; and that who ever saved it should be regarded as though he had saved all mankind. Our Messengers brought them proofs; then many of them thereafter commit excesses in the earth.
This is Allah, rather than Muhammad, and the decree is (or was) for the Jews.
The next Ayah is the decree for the Muslims:
5.33:
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

[empr guy]

Is there a scriptural basis for no killing or is this another "well ali didn't do it"?

[Heidar]

First I want you people to know we are exactly fallowing our Imams footsteps and we do what they did,we don't do what they didn't,we love what they loved,we hate what they hated ,we believe in what they believed and...
Here is our Imams brief description and their remarkable characteristics:
1. Imam Ali:braveness,acting with justice even to family or your enemies(he didn't allow his son-Imam Hassan- to kill the person tried to assassinate him until he died 2 days after the day he was terrored),helping the orphans and the poor people,generosity,obeying the Islam obligations and the prophets orders and being merciful towards enemies.(if you want to know more;he has a book named"Nahj al Balghah" consist of his letters to the provincial governors and every speeches of him and his Hadiths(orders and famous sentences)): http://balaghah.net/old/nahj-htm/eng/index.htm

2.Imam Hasan:generosity,renowned in praying so much,showing kindness to everyone,forgiveness,humbleness,hospitality,patience and bravery.full biography: http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_al-...ujtaba_%28a%29

3.Imam Hussain:humbleness,generosity,wisdom,knowledge,continence,helping the poor and orphans,decisiveness,self-esteem and sacrificing every thing to spread the true Islam.His most famous hadith is:"death with dignity is better than living with disgrace" You can read more here: http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_al-...%27Ali_%28a%29

4.Imam Sajjad(Ali ibn Hussain):best worshiper and prayer,patience,forgiveness,humbleness,helping the poor and orphans and feeding the poor. http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_%27...Sajjad_%28a%29

5.Imam Baghir(Muhammad ibn Ali):perfect wisdom and knowledge,sharing knowledge with every one,generosity,showing kindness to everyone and Restraining anger. http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_Muh...-Baqir_%28a%29

6.Imam Ja'far:sperading Islam,teaching the sience to every one(many of his student became inventors and architects and scientists),he found Islamic jurisprudence(Feqh),generosity and hospitality. http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_Ja%...-Sadiq_%28a%29

7.Imam Musa(Moses):self-esteem,patience and ...same as the others. http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_Mus...-Kazim_%28a%29

8.Imam Reza:asceticism and worshiping,humbleness,generosity,patience and so on.He is the only Imam that his shrine is in Iran. http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_%27Ali_b._Musa_al-Rida_%28a%29

9.Imam Jawad:generosity,courage against the dictators,avoidance of luxury and forgiveness. http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_Muhammad_b._%27Ali_al-Jawad_%28a%29

10.Imam Hadi: praying hardly,librating slaves,helping the poor,remarkable knowledge and hard working ,... http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_%27...l-Hadi_%28a%29

11.Imam Hassan Al Askari:generosity,asceticism,patience,teaching many people the true Islam and making them ready for the Last Imam who disapeared from the eyes. http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_al-Hasan_b._%27Ali_al-%27Askari_%28a%29

12.Imam Muhammad Al Mahdi:he is our last Imam.He will return when his 313 elite companions are ready and will unite the world and bring peace to everywhere.I suggest to study more about him:
http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_Muhammad_b._al-Hasan_al-Mahdi_%28a%29
http://www.inter-islam.org/faith/mahdi1.htm
https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-ency...-imam-al-mahdi

[Col. Tartleton]

Yeah but they were Jews, so how could they be innocent or civilians?

[Dragus]

Still proselytizing instead of making legitimate geopolitical or socioeconomic points? Then no more kiddie gloves.

You really need to be conscious of your audience. You're not talking to fellow Iranians, you're talking to the rest of the planet. The more you make arguments based on your religious beliefs, the more you'll keep turning people against having any sympathy for you or your country.

For starters, we are not inferior to you because of our love of pleasure and luxury. We don't see the avoidance of luxury as a mark of virtue, we see it as the mark of a good slave. The western world will never be slaves. Especially not to religion, and especially not to a religion most of them see as outside their own cultures, such as Islam.

When you try to convince people to be sympathetic to Iran with arguments based in religion, you actually tend to make us more eager to replace your government with a sane and secular one sooner rather than later.

[Roboute Guilliman]

Still proselytizing instead of making legitimate geopolitical or socioeconomic points? Then no more kiddie gloves.

You really need to be conscious of your audience. You're not talking to fellow Iranians, you're talking to the rest of the planet. The more you make arguments based on your religious beliefs, the more you'll keep turning people against having any sympathy for you or your country.

For starters, we are not inferior to you because of our love of pleasure and luxury. We don't see the avoidance of luxury as a mark of virtue, we see it as the mark of a good slave. The western world will never be slaves. Especially not to religion, and especially not to a religion most of them see as outside their own cultures, such as Islam.

When you try to convince people to be sympathetic to Iran with arguments based in religion, you actually tend to make us more eager to replace your government with a sane and secular one sooner rather than later.

I don't even consider these islamic propagandists as iranians. Its the first time, I came across Iranians with such opinions. But well I live in the west, my family left when they had their revolution and turned things to . All I can say is good luck, maybe one day Iran will be a serious country again, but I guess not in my life time.

[Bobington]

One of my friends is Bah'ai and is from Iran. He confirmed they speak Farsi but his recalls the country to be much more totalitarian, and his (rather rare) religion forbidden.

[zarmehr]

One of my friends is Bah'ai and is from Iran. He confirmed they speak Farsi but his recalls the country to be much more totalitarian, and his (rather rare) religion forbidden.

Baha'is are free to have their religious ceremony.But Baha'i is not a religion.its more like a cult.Like ku klux klans and they give sopport by israel and they act against beliefs of other iranians.I dont think in all countries,the government gives full freedom to those who want to overthrow it.I think that's why they call Iranian regime totalitarian.

[snuggans]

Baha'is are free to have their religious ceremony.But Baha'i is not a religion.its more like a cult.Like ku klux klans and they give sopport by israel and they act against beliefs of other iranians.I dont think in all countries,the government gives full freedom to those who want to overthrow it.I think that's why they call Iranian regime totalitarian.

one of the previous questions i asked was if Iran favored Persian Shias so much that it begins to be detrimental to other minorities, i received a half answer about Khameini being Azeri, then i see posts like these quoted above, and it sorta confirms what i wanted to hear. thank you zarmehr for being at least a bit more truthful

"Ba'hai is more like a cult, like the KKK, and they send money to Israel, so they don't get full freedom"

now THAT is REAL Iran:

"Since the Islamic Revolution of 1979 Iranian Bahá'ís have regularly had their homes ransacked or have been banned from attending university or from holding government jobs, and several hundred have received prison sentences for their religious beliefs, most recently for participating in study circles. Bahá'í cemeteries have been desecrated and property has been seized and occasionally demolished, including the House of Mírzá Buzurg, Bahá'u'lláh's father. The House of the Báb in Shiraz, one of three sites to which Bahá'ís perform pilgrimage, has been destroyed twice.

According to a US panel, attacks on Bahá'ís in Iran increased under Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's presidency. The United Nations Commission on Human Rights revealed an October 2005 confidential letter from Command Headquarters of the Armed Forces of Iran ordering its members to identify Bahá'ís and to monitor their activities. Due to these actions, the Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights stated on 20 March 2006, that she "also expresses concern that the information gained as a result of such monitoring will be used as a basis for the increased persecution of, and discrimination against, members of the Bahá'í faith, in violation of international standards. The Special Rapporteur is concerned that this latest development indicates that the situation with regard to religious minorities in Iran is, in fact, deteriorating."

[Raubritter]

You realy have to ask yourself how low are standards around here now that clear agitation just gets accepted and taken around here but you cant say the word .

[Heidar]

I'm so busy right now with my job.our holidays has ended so sorry if I couldn't answer to your imaginations of Islam,Iran and the prophet.
Just try to avoid fighting in this thread.we are all humans we all want peace and good life.if we are muslims and you are atheist or... it doesn't mean we must be enemies.we all hope for peace and unity.
And have this advice from me:don't be so negative.every thing has some negative pionts atleast try to see the good parts too.only seek for beauty not the other things.
I hope you'll understand it one day.
Farewell for now.