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Thread: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

  1. #41

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    First off thanks very much for the submod

    I reached 130 turns in as Epirus and I thought I should report my experience using some increased movement values.

    I went with 375 movement for characters, 350 for generals, 500 for fleets - largely aiming to avoid an utter blitzing of the map.

    I would say on balance, certainly no worse for the change, quite possibly better.

    I'm not sure if I've come across anything like the Sicily campaign on page one, I would say I've seen ai forces "doing stuff" i wouldnt normally expect, even if its been more against the other ai than me. The big difference ive seen is ptolomies.

    In the campaign opening, i took Crete and gifted it to Macedonia (largely to try and preserve a faction who you otherwise almost "have" to finish off as Epirus) and left Rhodes greek. Whilst KH tried to finish off the Antigonids (not that interesting), i was properly surprised when The Ptolomies showed up to remove their rivals.

    Pergamon which had largely removed the ptolomies from anatolia then finished off KH decided to attack Pella. I countered and took out Byzantium and a couple of FMs. I was then (again) surprised that the ptolomies showed up in what seemed to be a quite high intensity back and forth over rhodes, I believe both sides invaded more than once. the ptolomies eventually took rhodes and killed off Pergamon's last FM. this is probably all within 80-90 turns. Whilst I worry that these three dead factions is fast, I was undeniably involved in all of them.

    I was on my way to Sicily to try and get the reformed govs only for my plan of taking out rebel syracuse as a base got rather complex. the ptolomies got there first and took the city. odd though this was the romans then countered (as something of an exception to their general peninsular bound ways). within the last couple of turns the ptolomies have shown up again, this time taking Rhegion. By now I've rather got used to this, but its not something I'd seen before.

    Currently, I've Carthaginians in the south of france, germans in scotland, and numidians in corsica and sardina. in my view whilst only 11 free states remain, there's got to be an argument for more use of stuff like scripted garrisons in terms of "fixing" that if indeed its a problem.

    The only really odd behaviour i've seen is around the Hellespont. I know you'd "normally" expect the AI to casually send troops across trying to get to the other side, it has got a bit silly, I've seen the Gatai, Pontos, Sauromatian, Bosphoran Hayatan troops all try and cross there irrespective of who owns any of the 5 or 6 provinces between where they start and where they want their troops to end up. I think in future preventing troops from walking across without ships could be an idea.

    imho the two issues, less free states and the Hellespont are reasonable costs to pay to have exactly no idea where the Ptolomies will dump their next stack.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Thanks for the report, glad it hasn't been a negative experience and waste of a campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunydii View Post
    The only really odd behaviour i've seen is around the Hellespont. I know you'd "normally" expect the AI to casually send troops across trying to get to the other side, it has got a bit silly, I've seen the Gatai, Pontos, Sauromatian, Bosphoran Hayatan troops all try and cross there irrespective of who owns any of the 5 or 6 provinces between where they start and where they want their troops to end up. I think in future preventing troops from walking across without ships could be an idea.
    I wouldn't mind closing it off to foot travel either. The naval AI is really not as bad as it's often made out to be. At least, not with higher movement in place for it to take advantage of (not that you'd need it for this particular location, but overall). I don't know the historical accuracy of it though, whether there are any points where it would be feasible to travel without the use of ships (apparently the narrowest point is 0.75 miles, so maybe could ford or makeshift bridge or something?) but if historically, armies would have always had to use ships, then I'd definitely be in favor of closing it off.

    I'm not sure if I've come across anything like the Sicily campaign on page one
    I was on my way to Sicily to try and get the reformed govs only for my plan of taking out rebel syracuse as a base got rather complex. the ptolomies got there first and took the city. odd though this was the romans then countered (as something of an exception to their general peninsular bound ways). within the last couple of turns the ptolomies have shown up again, this time taking Rhegion. By now I've rather got used to this, but its not something I'd seen before.
    What's missing?

  3. #43
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    I went with 375 movement for characters, 350 for generals, 500 for fleets
    It just occurred to me that navies probably aren't using the 500 points when they have armies on board. With the default settings fleets travel much shorter distances when encumbered, probably because generals/named characters have less range and that gets factored into it. Makes me wonder though, I should test it out to see for sure..

  4. #44

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    It just occurred to me that navies probably aren't using the 500 points when they have armies on board. With the default settings fleets travel much shorter distances when encumbered, probably because generals/named characters have less range and that gets factored into it. Makes me wonder though, I should test it out to see for sure..
    I'll be honest, i saw a discussion on this somewhere, but i cant recall exactly what was said. I want to say the fleet is effected to the extent that the army have movement points missing?

    regardless, its not stopped ~30 eygiptian units turning up at carthage... sadly for them they are rather trapped without naval support but thats their fault for attack me.

    (incidentally carthage has move multiple stacks to massalia. no idea why theyre there mind, but they are)

    based on what ive seen on this campaign i dont doubt the ai can move decent numbers of troops by ship with these settings. The thing I'm way less convinced by is their ability to get them back if theyre not achieving much. but in a sense thats already a better problem then the ai not moving troops by ship to begin with.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Why was 500 set for admirals? This looks great, I noticed it before but it seems like you've been taking it a step further every few years.

    Testing it "officially" now.
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  6. #46
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Testing it "officially" now.
    That's cool. Check out this post for some measurement estimates with 500 movement points for land forces, both solo named characters and general armies. I think the numbers are closest to matching up with historical realism from what I've seen, but your guys' in house historians should have more information from which to tweak as necessary. I tried setting movement points to 1000 just to see if higher numbers work or 500 is max, but game didn't start. Maybe there's a range in between that still works, I don't know.

    But as it is, armies move somewhere between 6 and 9 miles/day on the starting road (or lack thereof) levels of the campaign map around various locations. And FMs on their own are more variable because of their movement altering traits and changes over time, but the ones I tested and previewed go between 11 to 17 miles/day. I'm not sure what percentage the highest road development level increases movement, so it might be something to keep in mind if it's like 4x higher than dirt roads or something. Though that might even still make sense since usually the entire map won't end up covered with them, and armies don't necessarily only move along roads anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Why was 500 set for admirals?
    Pretty much because it's the presumed maximum available value (edit: it's not), and results in around 17km/10.5mi day for a starting Roman raiding fleet for example. Seems like probably far less than ships would be able to travel, but again hopefully you guys have some good sources for numbers to compare. Plus I also just tested whether having land units on board affects that distance at all, and turns out when they're both at the same value, the fleet can move its full available distance same as without any land units. That's pretty cool.

    Spoiler for Raiding Fleet - Rome to S.Iberia: 1572.2km/976.92mi = 17.5km/10.9mi per day







    Spoiler for Raiding Fleet - Rome to Krete: 1,484.54km/922.45mi = 16.5km/10.3mi per day







    Edit: Woops, I totally blew the naval distance calculation at first post. Divided the total by 30 instead of 90, just updated with the correct values.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Ahh, makes sense. There is probably a cap on movement for the AI, if not the player.
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Correction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    I tried setting movement points to 1000 just to see if higher numbers work or 500 is max, but game didn't start.
    I must have done something wrong there, because I just tried starting_action_points at 1000 again just now for all character types and it works just fine. Looked like double the available movement in game compared to 500 at a glance. I think that pretty much leaves it open to being as historically accurate as possible, as desired. Maybe 500 still makes sense, maybe it's somewhere above that or below, but it should be able to be molded to anything it seems like. Can use the 500 estimates as a reference to figure out percentage changes based on where you want to end up, I may fiddle around some more myself, but the world is our oyster.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    I was curious how much of a difference there would be between no roads and max level roads, so I edited descr_strat.txt to remove all roads from every province, and then again to place max level roads in every province. Here are some estimated measurement comparisons for armies with 500 movement. In a nutshell, it's around 9.5km/6mi per day without roads, 14.5km/9mi per day on highways.

    Spoiler for No Roads - Rome to Massalia: 765.99km = 8.5km/5.3mi per day





    Spoiler for Max Roads - Rome to Emporion: 1,328.97km = 14.8km/9.2mi per day





    Spoiler for No Roads - Rome to Nesakton: 887.59km = 9.9km/6.2mi per day





    Spoiler for Max Roads - Rome to Singidunon: 1,285.25km = 14.3km/8.9mi per day





    Spoiler for No Roads - Atig to Iykoshim: 541.37km = 6.0km/3.7mi per day





    Spoiler for Max Roads - Atig to Sigan: 1,060.83km = 11.8km/7.3mi per day





    Spoiler for No Roads - Atig to Lapqi: 835.6km = 9.3km/5.8mi per day





    Spoiler for Max Roads - Atig to N.Africa: 1,498.93 = 16.7km/10.4mi per day





    Spoiler for No Roads - Gader to Moroika: 738.96km = 8.2km/5.1mi per day





    Spoiler for Max Roads - Gader to Emporion: 1,128.08km = 12.5km/7.8mi per day





    Spoiler for No Roads - Pella to Nesakton: 1,019.12km = 11.3km/7.0mi per day





    Spoiler for Max Roads - Pella to Patava: 1,156.9km = 12.9km/8.0mi per day





    Spoiler for No Roads - Pella to Side: 972.15km = 10.8km/6.7mi per day





    Spoiler for Max Roads - Pella to Antiochea: 1,410.76km = 15.7km/9.8mi per day





    For anyone who wants to test it out for themselves, attached are a descr_strat.txt with no roads in any province, one with max level roads in every province, and the default in case you forget to back up your own. Just rename and remove the parenthetical so it reads descr_strat.txt for whichever one you want to use before launching the game. The file goes in Medieval II Total War\mods\ebii\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign

    descr_strat (max roads).txt
    descr_strat (no roads).txt
    descr_strat (default).txt

  10. #50

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Has anyone using this submod watched AI behaviour between turns with the fog of war off?

  11. #51
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    I watched a bunch of AI movements like that when initially testing it out in a hotseat campaign. Though that was some years ago and older version of EBII, and I wasn't playing the campaign, rather switched my faction to AI control and just let it run, checking in once in a while. I wrote some about what I saw, and included a couple screenshots in first post. What are you looking for?

  12. #52

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    We've been testing this out on the development build (which has different CAI) and the AI behaviour has been alarming.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Lol what kind of alarming?

    Also, possibly related, do you happen to know if AI has their own fog of war, and whether toggling fow off also turns it off for AI? I've wondered about this in the past, and whether turning it off affects AI behavior.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    It doesn't affect AI behaviour far as I know.
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Any obvious reason new dev build CAI would result in alarming behavior that hasn't otherwise been reported with current public release? Still not sure what that might mean, and certainly curious what it could be. Maybe just different definitions of alarming..

  16. #56

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    I've made a personal use submod inspired by this one - I applied a factor of 3.25 to all "starting action points". If compared to real life, this means infantry moves at around 10 km per day, cavalry at 20, spies and assassins at 25+ or more. Fleets have a greatly increased range as well. The campaign I played was nothing short of fantastic (stopped because of bugs I accidentally created in other modifications I did and the upcoming R3 - please arrive already!!). Carthage became the dominant power in the northern Africa and Spain (the native Spanish factions were still alive though while the Numidians were forced to migrate), rome had all of mainland Italy and was locked in a vicious war for Massilia with one of Gaulish tribes, while in Asia Minor, the Pergamenes were chasing the Ptolemies out. Hayastan and Pontus were duking it with stacks and stacks in a to-and-fro "stasis", while in Central and South Asia , it was a vicious triple tug-of-war between the Baktrians, the Saka, and the Indians. The Sweboz had control of Scandinavia and Northern Germany, while the various Gaulish tribes more or less had realistic expanded borders (territories more or less looking like a enlarged version of their original). Sarmatian Half-Stacks raid all the way through the Balkans and Northern Asia Minor. The Seleucids were...really "Arche" this time around if you get what I mean. They chased the Parthians and Nabateans away from their traditional homelands (turning them horde), and are locked in another stasis with the Ptolemies (which is why the Attalids were able to take advantage in western Asia Minor). The whole ancient world was dynamic, full of vicious wars and bloodshed. This was EB2 on crack and I freaking loved Dooz's idea because it actually made military campaigns way more decisive (in that both the player and ai can do so much more with given troops). Was playing as Macedonia and was slowly gearing for a full scale invasion to reunite Alexander's empire after nearly 30 years of war to stabilize Macedonia, conquer the Balkans, and pacify Greece. I really wish to do it again, but with more flair (looking forward to z3n's campaign ai updates), so R3 please come out!!!

  17. #57
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Sounds like a fun campaign, Mr. Loop! Thanks for detailing all those factional situations, I love it. And I feel your pain about having to abandon a campaign you're invested in and waiting for another start. History nerds have feelings too! (even if they're about semi fictional ancient empire building..)

    I don't know when the next time I'll get a chance to fully dive into a campaign will be, but hopefully after the next stable long term build for months/years to come has been released. I'm considering going with 750 movement for armies, 1500 for navies (which actually lets fleets go from one end of the map to the other in one turn, but should come out to be around 30 miles/day I think), based on the measurement estimates for 500 so far. The only real academic source I've been able to find is this article I referenced before in this thread, which says between five and twenty miles per day on average seems to be the historical norm for armies. It also gives far higher rates for certain situations and campaigns, but we're of course dealing with averages on the whole for a TW campaign so the more normal rate is what I'd shoot for. But my hope/guess is 750 would put me somewhere right in the middle for the most part in most situations.

    Though I'd like to do more testing and calculating distances before committing to a final value, and there's one way I can think of to get the most accurate measurements. If I were able to create an alternative campaign starting situation with the entire map controlled by one faction (or maybe leaving one other faction alive in some remote region if the campaign wouldn't work with just one existing) and no other units on the board, I'd be able to move armies from place to place without them being diverted by enemy forces/settlements, and get a "pure" distance measurement. And having one version with no roads versus one with max level roads would help figure out the entire range of possibilities that might be possible in a campaign and get a good average. I'm not sure how monumental or simple a task it would be to create such a testing grounds though, so it might be out of my reach. But if anyone with knowledge of how to do this would be willing to help, either by directing my attention to resources which would tell me how to do this, or helping with editing mod files along the way, I'd be very grateful.

    In any case, there's no going back to regular movement for me. Even if the new CAI doesn't work well with increased ranges, I'll have to figure some way around it. Maybe copy pasting current CAI to newer releases, I don't know. But I've seen the light, and I'm afraid of the dark!

  18. #58
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Anyone know if movement bonuses conferred by roads and their upgrades are hardcoded? Or do they have percentage increases which can be modified? I'd like to look into possibly making more of a difference between no roads and roads, and somewhat less for each road upgrade level after that. Again referencing the 5 to 20 mile range from that article in above post, it would be cool if no roads traveling was around 5 miles/day, dirt roads 10, paved roads 15, and highways 20.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    It's the road level bonus in the EDB. Don't think it supports decimals.




  20. #60
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Thanks, Gigantus. I just fiddled around a bit and unfortunately, seems like that entry only sets the level of roads for the corresponding building hinterland_roads, 0 for dirt, 1 for paved, 2 for highway. Higher numbers didn't change anything, like providing longer ranges as I hoped, just highways with the same distance as if the value was set to 2. So unless I'm doing something wrong here, or there's some other way to modify road distance bonuses, seems like it might be hardcoded. Bummer!

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