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Thread: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

  1. #21
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Nice idea. I'm gonna give it a try on my campaigns, for now I've set the movement for my Generals and FMs to 420. So that the agents still have a bit more. I think it will be better campaign wise, I've lost so many turns before waiting for my Generals to get to a specific place.
    Agents actually still do have a bit more movement range, due to traits which increase it. Here's a comparison of my middle-aged (+5%) and trained (+10%) spy in Bononia, and troops without a FM (though I'm pretty sure having an FM lead an army doesn't actually increase their movement points, FM movement traits only affect the FM unit on its own... I'm pretty sure).

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




  2. #22
    Lusitanio's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    I see, nice! In any case, I think that this increased movement favours the AI which is able to make better decisions and react to the player in a faster way, so kudos for your work and I will incorporate this idea into my own build.

  3. #23

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Are fleets impacted by this increase too? Because ferrying troops faster was one of their important purposes (both realistically and in game), so it would be good that this stays like that to an extent, even though the bigger land movememnt means it would be less neccesary.

    We will either find a way, or make one.


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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Are fleets impacted by this increase too? Because ferrying troops faster was one of their important purposes (both realistically and in game), so it would be good that this stays like that to an extent, even though the bigger land movememnt means it would be less neccesary.
    Yes, fleets are impacted and for the better I would say.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Yup, you can see KH transport troops from the Peloponnese to Corsica in one turn in some of the screenshots of first post in this thread, both to conquer initially and later again to reinforce their new territory. And in my recent update where Carthage brought in reinforcements for their besieged Syrkakousi army, one came from the Libyan coast near Alexandria, the other from the Dardanelles. In the latter case, that army was in Sardinia the year before where I anticipated I would have to fight them, but they boarded their fleet just before I declared war. Soon after, while they were around Sicily I attacked their fleet hoping to sink the troops, but they got away (to the Black Sea apparently). Few turns later, bam, they're back with a vengeance and in a position to destroy my Roman ambitions.


    Spoiler for Spring 256, before the Punic war begins. Bodashtart at Sardinia.




    Spoiler for Autumn 256, the war has begun. Bodashtart caught off the coast of Sicily, but escapes.





    Spoiler for Spring 254, Bodashtart has regrouped in the Dardanelles and readies to launch his reinforcing strike into Sicily. Simultaneously, a hitherto unknown army operating against the Ptolemies between Kyrenaia and Alexandria has boarded fleet.





    Spoiler for AI turn, Spring 254, the reinforcements have landed and attacked. Ol' Bodi even hired a couple of mercenary companies from the area to bolster his forces.




    He might have gotten there sooner, certainly could have far as movement point allowance goes, but the Dardanelles were blocked off with Pergamene and other fleets. The timing sure worked out perfectly for Carthage, ending up with two reinforcing armies landing together, one on each flank. Ugh. I love it.

  6. #26

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Rebel navies are a bit annoying given they now have free reign on the mediterranean but i gotta say other than that on the whole its positive, not only a bit more realistic travel times but from a gameplay perspective playing as Rome and keeping a track of offices becomes a bloody nightmare when it takes a year to travel from Spain to the capital. You eventually get to a point where you just don't want to engage with it.

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  7. #27
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Nice, yeah Roman office management was exactly the initial motivation for this. Glad you're enjoying it overall, thanks for checking in.

  8. #28
    Lusitanio's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Some feedback about your idea for this submod:

    I set the movement for Generals at 420 instead of your 500, but overall most of the agents and captains have 500.

    The movement difference is really huge but I've been enjoying it so far. The campaign has been a lot faster thanks to that and less frustrating, I used to waste to many turns just shipping my troops somewhere... But now, in a single turn and with a good captain, I can ship troops from Africa to Italy, do that again and sometimes I will even have movement points left.

    The AI behaviour has improved a lot. I have done lots of things to improve the AI behaviour such as increase on the amount of money they can have, bigger treasuries overall and deleted the recruitment limitation script but the movement increase has had a much greater effect. In 50 turns, there are no rebel regions in the east apart from some in India, Central Europe only has 1 rebel settlement, I've never seen factions conquering as much or as far as now, like Makedonia that has conquered Illyria and the regions close to Italy, usually that would remain rebel until the Romans decided that it was conquest time.

    The AI is also able to join efforts better, I've been besieging Tarentum for 4 turns already and the Romans keep sending troops and armies to stop me, if I hadn't another army to destroy those reinforcements, they would have attacked my other army with a huge amount of troops.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Very happy to hear you're having a good experience, Lusitanio. Thanks for sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    I set the movement for Generals at 420 instead of your 500, but overall most of the agents and captains have 500.
    How come you set FMs to have less movement than captains? I suppose with movement bonus traits they can end up around the same, but I'm curious the reasoning for it (the default settings have them at 125 for FM and 124 for captains, for reference). I've also always wanted to nail down and confirm if FM movement points/bonuses/penalties affect the army they're leading, or just when they move alone. So if an FM with lower movement than captains attaches to an army, does the army now have less movement than it did before when led by a captain? Or does "captain" in the config file apply to any army, even led by an FM? Which would mean an FM would theoretically have less movement range on his own than when attached to an army if FM has less range than captains. Maybe you've noticed in your campaign, but no worries if not, I should test this stuff myself at some point.

    The movement difference is really huge but I've been enjoying it so far. The campaign has been a lot faster thanks to that and less frustrating, I used to waste to many turns just shipping my troops somewhere... But now, in a single turn and with a good captain, I can ship troops from Africa to Italy, do that again and sometimes I will even have movement points left.
    I absolutely love shipping units around now, knowing it's much closer to historical reality and not feeling unrealistically hamstrung and reminded it's just a game. Especially in a mod that's all about historical accuracy. It definitely shouldn't take a year to move an army across Italy lol. I don't feel bad about my EBII campaigns anymore hearing army movement information in documentaries or reading stuff about it, and comparing to how off it used to be in game. Now I can just about do the same maneuvers myself! I love levying the legions, the allies from Italy joining the main army near Rome in a single turn, then maybe even beginning their march or actually attacking an enemy if it's in Italy before the season is out. Unless I had city's to siege and take, I was able to do smaller campaigns within a year and have the boys back home by winter usually.

    The AI behaviour has improved a lot. I have done lots of things to improve the AI behaviour such as increase on the amount of money they can have, bigger treasuries overall and deleted the recruitment limitation script but the movement increase has had a much greater effect. In 50 turns, there are no rebel regions in the east apart from some in India, Central Europe only has 1 rebel settlement, I've never seen factions conquering as much or as far as now, like Makedonia that has conquered Illyria and the regions close to Italy, usually that would remain rebel until the Romans decided that it was conquest time.
    The benefit to AI has really been one of the biggest positives for me. So cool to hear you're having a similar experience! I didn't continue my own campaign after about 73 turns because I was at such a pivotal moment, that the memories created by engaging would leave me shattered knowing they wouldn't matter because I couldn't continue the game sooner than later, with major bugs still being ironed out for the next release. But I'd really love to hear how AI factions progress in a longer term campaign with the player in the mix, once all the rebels are out, how they conduct war with each other and with the player, etc.

    The AI is also able to join efforts better, I've been besieging Tarentum for 4 turns already and the Romans keep sending troops and armies to stop me, if I hadn't another army to destroy those reinforcements, they would have attacked my other army with a huge amount of troops.
    This has been a huge revelation for me. The difference in the player's (or even AI factions I guess) ability to lay sieges and starve out is pretty big I think. It's sort of a feeling of never really being safe to do anymore, because you can easily get surrounded and attacked quickly by forces you may not even be aware of if you keep the city besieged instead of assaulting. Which opens up the risk/reward element of the decision to siege or assault even more. As well as the strategic elements of having to have a secondary force to screen your besieging force, like you did. Or having a network of spies to really scout every inch of forest anywhere near the area, make sure the enemy doesn't have units to send against you. Feels like it makes the usually ho-hum standard business of taking settlements into a bit more of a gamble, taking a bit more thought and planning.

    Man, I can't wait to get a proper 1,000 turn campaign going

  10. #30

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    Man, I can't wait to get a proper 1,000 turn campaign going
    I'm with you there! Before asking in the main forum, anyone know the devs' reasoning for the amount of movement currently in the game (e.g. 125 for FM)?

  11. #31

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwebib View Post
    I'm with you there! Before asking in the main forum, anyone know the devs' reasoning for the amount of movement currently in the game (e.g. 125 for FM)?
    Probably to avoid the type of gameplay Lusitanio was describing, to slow down AI expansion and keep the rebels around longer. Seen some of the devs use similar reasoning on submods that made sweeping changes before.

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  12. #32

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    That makes sense. I do enjoy slower expansion in my games, but at the same time I feel it is a little immersion-breaking to take a year to traverse Italy. I guess that's where customization comes in. I may not go for the full 500 move points, but somewhere in between.

  13. #33

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    I also love this new movement mod. The AI is far superior due to as you guys say being less interrupted. And all the new native invasions is much welcomed, as that was the way to travel. The mod makers can keep 124 as default for "slow" gameplay, but anyone who does not just bumrush enemy, can enjoy much better AI behavior.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Long time since I saw this level of enthusiasm for a submod. With 4 turns per year, what is the most realistic amount of movement points?

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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    How come you set FMs to have less movement than captains? I suppose with movement bonus traits they can end up around the same, but I'm curious the reasoning for it (the default settings have them at 125 for FM and 124 for captains, for reference). I've also always wanted to nail down and confirm if FM movement points/bonuses/penalties affect the army they're leading, or just when they move alone. So if an FM with lower movement than captains attaches to an army, does the army now have less movement than it did before when led by a captain? Or does "captain" in the config file apply to any army, even led by an FM? Which would mean an FM would theoretically have less movement range on his own than when attached to an army if FM has less range than captains. Maybe you've noticed in your campaign, but no worries if not, I should test this stuff myself at some point.



    This has been a huge revelation for me. The difference in the player's (or even AI factions I guess) ability to lay sieges and starve out is pretty big I think. It's sort of a feeling of never really being safe to do anymore, because you can easily get surrounded and attacked quickly by forces you may not even be aware of if you keep the city besieged instead of assaulting. Which opens up the risk/reward element of the decision to siege or assault even more. As well as the strategic elements of having to have a secondary force to screen your besieging force, like you did. Or having a network of spies to really scout every inch of forest anywhere near the area, make sure the enemy doesn't have units to send against you. Feels like it makes the usually ho-hum standard business of taking settlements into a bit more of a gamble, taking a bit more thought and planning.
    Sorry, I actually forgot to say that I reduced movement for captains as well, just 20 less points than Generals. However, after playing with that much movement, I think that I will decrease it to something like 300 for Generals and 280 for Captains, otherwise traits that give or take movement points wouldn't mean anything and it's a bit better for the overall campaign (ships become even more important thanks to their huge movement).

  16. #36
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EB 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwebib View Post
    I'm with you there! Before asking in the main forum, anyone know the devs' reasoning for the amount of movement currently in the game (e.g. 125 for FM)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin N View Post
    Probably to avoid the type of gameplay Lusitanio was describing, to slow down AI expansion and keep the rebels around longer. Seen some of the devs use similar reasoning on submods that made sweeping changes before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwebib View Post
    That makes sense. I do enjoy slower expansion in my games, but at the same time I feel it is a little immersion-breaking to take a year to traverse Italy. I guess that's where customization comes in. I may not go for the full 500 move points, but somewhere in between.
    I kinda assumed it was just left somewhere around vanilla levels without much thought given to increasing it because that's just always been Total War. No idea though whether the team considered more realistic levels and decided against it for whatever reasons or if it ever came up or what the deal is. But my impression over the years has been, whenever a gameplay balancing issue has been brought up, the team's position has been historical accuracy over gameplay and balance (not that balance is ignored, but priorities). Like certain factions being harder to play or start as, because that was their historically accurate position. Or even more recent debates like funneling AI through certain areas and keeping them out of others in the name of historical accuracy, at the expense of gameplay (depending on how you look at it I guess).

    All this to say, it would be kind of weird if the their reason for limiting movement so much is to preserve a slower expansion for AI factions. That seems to put some sort of balance/gameplay ahead of historical accuracy (i.e., armies moving this slow is not historically accurate), which is not usually the case from my observations. And it's just feels so artificial, if the only reason expansion is slower is literally because the armies doing the expanding are moving slower. I know a lot of other work has been put into the mod to slow down expansion, like unrest and having to take time to build up governments, etc. which I love, as I also prefer a slow and steady expansion campaign. But for me, the benefits of realism and positive AI utilization of more range far outweigh any perceived negative of the map getting colored somewhat earlier than before. But to be clear, these are just my observations/interpretations and I don't have 20/20 vision nor any insight into the team's discussions and reasoning.


    Quote Originally Posted by moisesjns View Post
    I also love this new movement mod. The AI is far superior due to as you guys say being less interrupted. And all the new native invasions is much welcomed, as that was the way to travel. The mod makers can keep 124 as default for "slow" gameplay, but anyone who does not just bumrush enemy, can enjoy much better AI behavior.
    Awesome! AI overall and its use of naval invasions in particular has been really exciting for me. Glad it hasn't been a fluke in my campaign and others are experiencing it as well. And I'm totally with you about not blitzing the AI as a player making for a much better experience. Maybe some players can abuse this by just beelining straight for AI factions capitals and wiping them out as soon as possible or something? Not fun for me, but neither is the idea of dictating what should be fun for anyone else. Though my guess is it won't be too easy because the AI can reinforce their positions rather quickly, so maybe even trying to cheese the game will still have some sort of challenge to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maltacus View Post
    Long time since I saw this level of enthusiasm for a submod. With 4 turns per year, what is the most realistic amount of movement points?
    From what I can tell, the full 500 (allowing somewhere around 6 to 8.5 miles/day based on my estimations) is still not even up to the higher ranges of what armies marched according to some of the numbers I've seen (up to 20 miles/day). But better roads would probably raise that and bring them closer to the numbers in this article for example, 10-15 miles/day. Also, I should do more rigorous and comprehensive analysis in the game to get a more exact and consistent measure of distances. My estimates are based on a handful of observations and comparing them to a google maps route, but not taking into account every province's road/hinterland situation and the like. But I think it's safe to say that 500 will be closest to realistic, though I haven't tried anything over that number because the traits file seems to suggest it's the maximum.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Sorry, I actually forgot to say that I reduced movement for captains as well, just 20 less points than Generals. However, after playing with that much movement, I think that I will decrease it to something like 300 for Generals and 280 for Captains, otherwise traits that give or take movement points wouldn't mean anything and it's a bit better for the overall campaign (ships become even more important thanks to their huge movement).
    Oh, I see! Not sure what you mean though about the movement traits not meaning anything, but in any case whatever works for you is what's best. I think far as AI competence, any range increase will help.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Oh, and I updated the title of thread to reflect the new patch, but there isn't a new descr_characters.txt in it so the current attachment will still work for those not customizing their own numbers. Though as a reminder, changes to that file are not save compatible, so do your experimenting and testing to see what range you like before starting an actual campaign in earnest.

  18. #38

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    I noticed rebel armies reverted to the old vanilla behaviour of leaving settlements lightly defended and consolidating into huge dreadstacks wandering the province. This is probably the real reason for the "improved" AI, that settlement are easier to conquer simply because their defenders wander around aimlessly. There's a reason for the EB team wanting the rebel settlements to stay around longer. They represent small factions that stood independent for most of the mod timeframe, historically.

    Nonetheless, I think I'll play with increased movement points myself. The provinces may be easier to conquer, but the dreadstacks make them harder to control and the devastation they cause it's a big issue. And I won't lie, the increased movement speed is hugely convenient, especially if you want to run offices. I doubled the vanilla EB2 speed to 250 points for named characters but maybe it's a bit too much. 500 sounds really insane

  19. #39
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    The Gauls are sailing east for naphta at a rate of 250 then, judging by your avatar.

    This is probably the real reason for the "improved" AI, that settlement are easier to conquer simply because their defenders wander around aimlessly.
    The improved gameplay from the AI factions that have been described in the thread consists of both expanding quicker in general but also countering human player invasions more effectively and consolidating and focusing its forces to a higher degree. The first thing could be a consequence of rebel subfactions leaving their settlements with insufficient garrisons but not the other.

    I have seen rebel armies leaving their towns lightly guarded both before and after altering campaign movement in EBII. It is possible that there is a correlation between the frequency of this behaviour and campaign movement rate but I haven't seen it displayed clearly in EBII or other mods where I made similar changes. Increasing the income of the rebels seems to help somewhat against the issue in any case.

    If 500 is insane, what is a proper movement value for a 4 turns per year setting? Dooz seems convinced that even 500 is unhistorically little. I haven't run the numbers myself.
    Last edited by Maltacus; May 04, 2021 at 12:57 PM.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Here are some distance measurements with 500 movement points. I take the total distance and divide by 90(days) to represent a three month seasonal turn in EBII's 4tpy model, which gives us the maximum possible forced march rate per day. These screenshots were all taken on the second turn of a fresh campaign so any traits or whatever else that might need a turn to pass to load up properly will be in place. Therefore, all measurements here are in the Summer season, and reflect whatever corresponding effect that would have on movement based on region. Also, being the beginning of the campaign, the roads will be at their least developed so you can expect ranges to increase accordingly as roads do. And finally, these are estimates, so imagine there is a ~ included before each number if you wish, but I'm not including them as redundant.

    Spoiler for Army - Rome to Massalia: 893.5km = 9.9km/6.1mi per day





    Spoiler for FM - Rome to Mastia: 2,143.3km = 23.8km/14.8mi per day





    Spoiler for Army - Gader to Sekeiza: 962.2km = 10.7km/6.6mi per day





    Spoiler for FM - Gader to Lemonon: 1,614.5km = 17.9km/11.1mi per day





    Spoiler for Army - Atig to Lapqi: 937.1km = 10.4km/6.5mi per day





    Spoiler for FM - Atig to Sigan: 1,314.5km = 14.6km/9.1mi per day





    Spoiler for Army - Pella to Nesakton: 1,267.2 = 14.1km/8.8mi per day





    Spoiler for FM - Pella to Rome: 2,071km = 23km/14.3mi per day





    Spoiler for Army - Pella to Side: 1,270.9km = 14.1km/8.8mi per day





    Spoiler for FM - Pella to Jerusalem: 2,435.8km = 27.1km/16.8mi per day




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