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Thread: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

  1. #61

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    Thanks, Gigantus. I just fiddled around a bit and unfortunately, seems like that entry only sets the level of roads for the corresponding building hinterland_roads, 0 for dirt, 1 for paved, 2 for highway. Higher numbers didn't change anything, like providing longer ranges as I hoped, just highways with the same distance as if the value was set to 2. So unless I'm doing something wrong here, or there's some other way to modify road distance bonuses, seems like it might be hardcoded. Bummer!
    Do we know exactly how the level of roads effect movement speeds?

  2. #62
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    I'd like to know more specifically as well, but here are some rough comparisons between no roads and highways from earlier in this thread for a general idea. I'd ballpark it at around a 33% increase in distance on the whole... Idunno though

  3. #63
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R2

    Regarding naval movement, I think you could set admiral starting_action_points to 5000 and it be realistic according to this text. There are citations of 1,000 miles traveled in 9 days (translating to 10,000 miles in a 90 day EBII season). At 500 sap, my in-game measurement estimates were around 10 miles/day. So 5000 sap would make that 100 miles/day, resulting in a maximum distance of 9,000 miles in a 90 day season.

    There are a lot of citations there though, some yielding lower ranges. Maybe 2,500 sap for 50 miles/day would be more appropriate as an average. Though none of my in-game estimates took into account admiral traits affecting distance (measurements were taken before traits kicked in), which is something to keep in mind if figuring out what ranges you'd like for yourself. But I'd shoot for a realistic average and let traits do what they may by increasing/decreasing that. Long as you put it somewhere in the middle, hopefully the traits won't push them out of the zone of realism. Also, I only measured with the starting Roman raiding fleet unit, and I don't know if different units have different inherent ranges.

    Another thing to keep in mind would be that naval unit range gets reduced to whatever land units' remaining range is once they get on board. So even with such high numbers, once an army with 500 sap and its full movement available loads in, those ships won't be going any further than that. Unless of course you use the workaround where if you have more than one naval unit in a stack, click and highlight all their unit cards together (instead of just clicking on the fleet icon on the map) before clicking a destination, and once it reaches the encumbered distance limit you'll be given the extended range as if not encumbered again, so long as you don't click away from the units in the meantime. Hard to explain, now that I try... But you can pretty much get the full naval distances this way, just won't be able to disembark until the next turn because the land units will have run out of movement points. This could fairly be described as an exploit though, because the AI cannot do it.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement for EBII 2.35A R3.5

    Updated the original post with a new descr_character.txt since R3 updated the file with new movement points. Looks like the default mod value was doubled from the previous version to 250 now, with navies 3x that at 750. You can get an idea of estimated distances you'll get in game by halving the measurements in this post which were done with 500 (should come out to around 2.5 to 5 miles/day).

    The file in original post is still at 500, with navies 3x that at 1500 in keeping with the default mod ratio. Both these values should yield realistic ranges according to this article for land units (around 5 to 10 miles/day in game) and this one for naval units (should be around 30 miles/day in game).

    Note on naval movement: previous measurements were done with 500 and resulted in around 10 miles/day, which is what I'm basing my 30 mile/day estimate on. Also, these don't take into account admiral traits which will increase or decrease movement, but even increased by as much as 300% they should fall within the ranges in the linked article. And when land units are aboard a fleet, that fleet's movement is reduced to whatever movement points the land units have remaining.

    Edit: updated for R3.5 hotfix, file compare showed differences with R3

  5. #65
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    Thanks again for looking into this, I feel like it was a positive change to explore this overall. We were able to address a couple of new aspects related to movement like pirate ships and starting rebel fleets.
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  6. #66
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    I'm glad my own little obsessive compulsions turned out to be useful

    And I've been seeing the new CAI in action running some simmed campaigns, it's looking excellent. So thanks for your work there, I can't wait to eventually get to play a real campaign and experience it myself.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    Here is 750 turns of AI faction progression with 500 movement and the new R3.5 CAI.



    Spoiler for Progression Maps













  8. #68

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    Nice! I can't wait to try out R3 and take it for a spin. Clearly the AI has been put on steroids, but it seems to me like there are several factors at play:

    1. Enhanced movement
    2. CAI rewrite in general
    3. Rebels toned down (no more 5 star death stacks)

    Of these, it's probably hard to say which has the most impact, and it's clearly working well together, but how would you say the rebels feel like in R3? In every R2 game I've had, 99% of the famous battle markers on the map I come across were Rebel FM winning vs any faction captain losing.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    I should clarify, that campaign progression was with 500 movement, not the default 250. But yes, all those factors are really working well together as you say.

    I just loaded a late campaign save and scanned the map for heroic markers, but didn't see any. Though based on the pretty smooth progression of all the AI factions against rebel territories, I'd say that issue is a thing of the past. Not only the rebel general fix, but AI really does a good job of consolidating its forces and trying to make sure they have the numbers before launching an attack. And encircling enemy armies and reinforcing their own with additional units and armies in the zone of combat (with both movement points, though the more available, the more successfully they're be able to do in certain situations).

    One of the coolest things has been the lack of streamroller superfactions this late into a campaign, and that so few have been destroyed. From the final map, it looks like maybe only two factions, KH and Nabatu, are gone? Even if there are one or two others, it's still pretty incredible. In a way older version of the mod, and with the old default 125 movement to boot, by around this point or very shortly thereafter, there were only two superfactions left, me and one AI. There's a lot of start-stop with wars which might have something to do with this, but I take it to be part of the diplomacy rework and it looks to me like it's having a good effect.

    Though the foreseeable issue of naval non-stacking has come to pass, however. With how the fleets are handled now (as a side effect of something to do with naval commander traits is my understanding), they're not able to merge after the first turn or two, and the seas are littered with them, single unit stacks everywhere. It's a bit odd but I guess you get used to it and can maybe rationalize it somehow or another. Maybe it looks kinda cool having a dozen or more naval units bunched up like a big armada. Maybe it's good to have that many fleets available and sailing around, facilitating naval invasions (which are fast and furious, I love it). Idunno.

    Spoiler for fleets


  10. #70
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    Wow, 750 turns in and it doesn't look too bad. I was hoping it would end up that way.

    I definitely was trying to stop the "to the death" wars, so that things would still be pretty interesting for longer campaigns.
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  11. #71
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    I was hoping to get to 1000 turns, but Gigantus died! I used the New Guys hidden faction in the hotseat to get a nice unfiltered look at AI progression, but looks like even immortality has its limits.

    Still, it was an exciting 18.5 hours over two or three days checking in and seeing such dynamic action.
    The Pritanoi coastal kingdoms rising and falling but their incursions and conquests never stopped.
    Arverni putting the Celt in Celtiberian with their migrations and colonizations in the peninsula, which itself has been hotly contested throughout.
    Rome with their awesome expansion across the Adriatic which they were able to hang onto for a good while until the Boii menace grew too powerful for the southern civilizations and everyone else to contain, would have loved to see where that went.
    The Lugiones growing strong then swallowed up, a similar fate appearing to befall the Sweboz it seemed.
    Carthage and Ptolemies hanging on and then some at times various times, the naval excursions really helping them grab what they can across the seas.
    The Seleukids surely had their hands full at all times but boy did they manage to keep on keeping on, fighting back all upstarts and usurpers, who themselves kept getting knocked down and back up again, and then again and again.
    And look at all that action in Greece and therabouts, so much back and forth and far flung hellenic adventures and colonizations, would make a Homer proud.
    A nice balance of power in the far east throughout as well.

    I mean this whole deal has been a thing of beauty. A cohesive, logically behaving campaign AI with opened up action (both with the default increase and moreso with double that), it's a helluva thing. Man oh man I can't wait to settle into a personal empire amidst all this.

    Edit: I have saves at every checkpoint pictured here if you or anyone is interested to load em up and take a look around the map at their leisure, see what armies are up to, watch some troop movements and so on. Would only need a couple small edits from the default release to make compatible and load up, the movement and making New Guys playable.

  12. #72

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    It's weird how whatever version and change comes to EBII, Rome always seems to struggle pushing out of Italy. Seems a bit ahistorical considering they were the most expansionist power of the hellenic era maybe something really has to be done about the pesky Romans who knows...

  13. #73
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    Well they hadn't expanded out before the start date of the mod, so no reason to think they would or could

  14. #74

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    Maybe someone already wrote about this, but the thing is that the reason this submod is so good is that it allows AI to act in the simplest way possible. If the AI has so many movement points, it will get to its intended target in one turn. If it has to take two or more turns to do this, there is a good chance that something will get in the way or the position of the target or other units will change, which will force the AI to change its path and very often end up acting silly or going in circles.
    For me personally, the problem is that this modification allows me to use blitzkrieg tactics and outmaneuver AI armies to get into a city defended by a single unit, so the only sensible solution is role-playing and using half the available movement points. So I think it would be good to add an option to extend movement points exclusively for AI, but that's probably impossible.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    I completely agree with the good and the bad here, and probably did write about them in some of my long rambling posts as I was getting excited about the changes to campaign dynamics lol.

    More decisive AI due to less turns needed to complete a goal is definitely a good thing for me. I see less meandering and backtracking, more aggression and initiative. And yes, the player can exploit more movement points to their heart's content. Whatever makes them happy :p

  16. #76

    Default Re: [Submod] Enhanced Campaign Movement (v2.35A R3.5)

    maybe Coastal routes from Strategikos will help with fleets spam

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