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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

  1. #41
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    That's pretty awesome stuff. How did you do it?

    ​~Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; September 24, 2016 at 01:21 PM.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Quote Originally Posted by Websy View Post
    You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

    This late in Byzantium it's pretty much gone. My professor's have said that it was made only from an oil that was collected from the Black Sea and Caucausus regions and that these were lost to the empire increasingly in the twelfth century and gone after 1204. I'll have a scour in the library when the new semester starts to look it up properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kjertesvein View Post
    That's pretty awesome stuff. How did you do it?

    The use of the weapon seem to coincide with what Websy's professor mentioned, with "the decline of the Komnenian Emperors and of the Byzantine military and the subsequent sack of Constantinople caused the complete recipe to be lost to time." You can read more here. One suggestion is that the artisan family who made the fire liquid died out, although it's uncertain. The other is, as Websy said, the increasing difficulty of obtaining the needed oil form Caucasus. (Roland, Alex "Secrecy, Technology, and War: Greek Fire and the Defense of Byzantium, 678-1204 " Technology and Culture, Vol. 33, No. 4 (Oct., 1992), pp. 655-679). Perhaps the weapon need some sort of researched technology and to maintain land/trade with Caucasus where this oil was obtained. Perhaps some variation of those elements, seeing as the equipment was no longer in use at the start of the mod.
    How? Well, long story short I just make the siphon naval_weapon model from Dromonarion into a warscape model that can be used on land as a battlefield_engine. So from this:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    ...to this:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Thank god for CA's love of rather anachronistic weapons for the timeframe. No need to create the model, they already made 2 great ones.

    If you notice closely in motion, the projectile is rather deceptive in still picture, as it is actually a single spurt rather than a stream like naval fire siphon's flame in the game. For that I needed repeated trials to find out which animation and particle effect that looks best.

    Speaking of rather anachronistic weapons for the timeframe, should this be even in the mod? Should it given a bit of a leeway, or just scrap the idea?
    Last edited by You_Guess_Who; August 09, 2016 at 01:00 PM.

  3. #43
    Ltd.'s Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    I'm all for keeping this. Might be a tad bit anachronistic but hey its Greek fire..... guarding the capital.... constantinople. Using it on land units is an overstretch but I'd love to defend constantinople with them.
    If for nothing else than as a submod.

  4. #44
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Hmm.

    ~Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; September 24, 2016 at 01:24 PM.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Perhaps if people feel it will be too inaccurate a sub-mod for it could be made for those who want it. Those Greek fire grenades would be pretty simple to make by just giving a naft unit to the Byzantines

    I've been somewhat bothered by this but what would be the difference between the "heavy infantry" unit and the scoutatoi swordsmen? it feels somewhat out of place that all the other units in their roster have historical names and then there's the incredibly vague "heavy infantry" Wouldn't the scoutatoi make the heavy infantry unit somewhat redundant? (It's like having Man-At-Arms unit, then a "Heavy swordmen" unit)
    Last edited by RedBaronFlyer; August 09, 2016 at 11:13 PM.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBaronFlyer View Post
    Perhaps if people feel it will be too inaccurate a sub-mod for it could be made for those who want it. Those Greek fire grenades would be pretty simple to make by just giving a naft unit to the Byzantines

    I've been somewhat bothered by this but what would be the difference between the "heavy infantry" unit and the scoutatoi swordsmen? it feels somewhat out of place that all the other units in their roster have historical names and then there's the incredibly vague "heavy infantry" Wouldn't the scoutatoi make the heavy infantry unit somewhat redundant? (It's like having Man-At-Arms unit, then a "Heavy swordmen" unit)
    It's not entirely certain when Greek Fire siphons ceased to be used by the Byzantines, but most scholars, and the sources themselves seem to point to them being lost sometime before 1204. As I noted elsewhere, there is strangely no mention of them in the Sieges in 1203 and 1204. The last mention of Greek Fire (as far as I am aware) is in the Annales of Niketas Choniates, speaking of the reign of Manuel I Komnenos and his showcasing of the wonders of the Byzantine world, c.1165. I do not believe it would be entirely out of place to suppose that the weapon could have been used again, if the right people and materials could be secured (Trebizond theoretically would have been in the best position to do this). The grenades were easy enough to fashion -- I would know...I have one sitting right here. The siphons, depending on whether they were terrestrial or sea-borne, required a bit more expertise, but nothing that a well-equipped workshop of the time would not have been able to achieve.

    As for the second part of your question -- I agree, "Heavy Infantry" seems to be a bit vague. "Heavy Archers" is also a bit vague. Both of these terms could be replaced with more immersive terminology. I would suggest naming the heavy infantry either "Dismounted Athanatoi", or "Vestiaritai", or even just "Spatharioi". The archers, something like "Mourtatoi" or "Toxotai Rhomaike". The "Scoutatoi" I would rename to "Skoutatoi" for consistency and accuracy. Skoutatoi armed with spears would be far more likely in the Byzantine army, so I would name the spear ones "Skoutatoi" and the sword ones "Skoutatoi Swordsmen", or just remove the issue altogether and call one "Skoutatoi Spearmen" and one "Skoutatoi Swordsmen". Kavallarioi should definitely be "Koursores", assuming you want them to be light cavalry. The Anglovarragoi I might suggest going with mail masks with only the eyes exposed. That's a much more Byzantine look. I'm surprised by the lack of Menavlatoi, might the devs think of including them as well? Also, any reason for the lack of true Kataphraktoi/Athanatoi? Although the army was vastly reduced, these types of units still existed, even though in a diminished state.

  7. #47
    gary's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Amazing
    My Granfather Frederick Avery.Battalion Boxing champion. Regiment.The Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. dorcorated D.C.M. M.M.
    campaigns

    (India.1930) (Norway 1940) (Fontenay le Pesnil) (North-West Europe1944-45) (Argoub Se!lah)
    (Sicily, 1943 Salerno) (Minturno) (Anzio Gemmano Ridge)
    "Burma, 1942"
    My grandfather was a hero, modest, quiet and wounded twice, in hand to hand combat at Casino Italy.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Hey modders i found this for you guys if you haven't already found it. Some historical names and units to help you guys out http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ine-unit-names

  9. #49
    Styl2000's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    I thing that Greek Fire should be unlocked with a technology and you mast have Constantinople. I mean Total War puts you on a time period and then it is up to you to change history.Greek Fire most probably didn't desperate, it was just too expensive or they couldn't find the materials.If not then I guess a sub mod should do the work

  10. #50

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Speaking of Greek fire, I have been recently reading: "The Fall of Constantinople" by David Nicolle, Stephen Turnbull, John Haldon (Polish edition). In second part of the book there is a chapter related to Greek fire. Stephen Turnbull mentions that it was actually used in defense of Constantinople in 1453 - At some point it was used to defend the ship that came with large supply of wheat (or other kind of cereal). Turks tried to capture or sink it but according to author they were driven off by the fire.
    The other mentioning of the use comes from a German, named Johannes Grant who was commanding defense in some sector against siege towers and used the Greek fire to set those towers afire. Specific siege tower is mentioned, which was responsible for partial collapsing of tower near St. Romanus Gate.

    So there are at least two accounts of the Greek fire use during the last siege. Of course there may be some doubts of its accuracy but if confirmed they prove that Greek fire wasnt fully forgotten.


    Other things that I wanted to touch, I am not sure what is intended to be ending date of the campaign in the mod but since other factions already have some access to gunpowder and cannons I was wondering if in Late period Byzantine Empire should not have access to those either ? There are some mentions of its appearance already in XIVth century in Constantinople and first confirmed use comes from 1394–1402 siege of Constantinople by Bayezid Ist, although it is uncertain whether all cannons belonged to westerners (Genoese soldiers from Galata probably) or some were already in use by Byzantines. However by the 1422 siege Constantinople had its own, though very limited, arsenal and cannons were also used in 1453 siege. So shouldn't Byzantine empire have some limited access to the gunpowder and simple cannons/handguns ?

    Last, even though you stated in first post that it is only early stage and not all units are shown, I was still wondering and though I figured I should ask, if Byzantine Empire will have access to any mercenary units from Italy and other western countries. It is known that for the last 200 years of Empire, Byzantines relied heavily on mercenaries and air from the West. I though a good solution to this would be a specific building like in Shogun 2 there was Nanban Quarter, here there could be a Venetian or Genoese Quarter giving access to some western units. I mean Galata was at that point more western than Byzantine so that would make sense.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    After the Sack of Constantinople and the rise of the Latin Empire, the Successor States began training their native people for military service rather than relying heavily on mercenaries. Partly in vengeance for taking over Constantinople, and part for the same fear of getting conquered themselves.
    Last edited by Slytacular; August 18, 2016 at 07:37 AM.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    That's not true. Same Michael VIII Palaiologos that restored Byzantine Empire, few years earlier defeated Principality of Achaea and Despotate of Epirus in battle of Pelagonia in which he not only commanded native forces of his State but also according to Chronicle of the Morea there were contingents from Germany, Hungary, Serbia as well as Bulgarian and Turkish cavalry supporting him.
    And regardless of this, mod doesnt end on Successor states but as there is a chance (or actually a goal to recapture Constantinople) the natural way is to follow the scheme of Byzantine armies in XIIIth-XVth centuries which relied on mercenaries. I agree that there should be a strong base of native units but addition of mercenaries from the west would only enhance the gameplay.

  13. #53
    Styl2000's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Other things that I wanted to touch, I am not sure what is intended to be ending date of the campaign in the mod but since other factions already have some access to gunpowder and cannons I was wondering if in Late period Byzantine Empire should not have access to those either ? There are some mentions of its appearance already in XIVth century in Constantinople and first confirmed use comes from 1394–1402 siege of Constantinople by Bayezid Ist, although it is uncertain whether all cannons belonged to westerners (Genoese soldiers from Galata probably) or some were already in use by Byzantines. However by the 1422 siege Constantinople had its own, though very limited, arsenal and cannons were also used in 1453 siege. So shouldn't Byzantine empire have some limited access to the gunpowder and simple cannons/handguns ?
    I agree with you. I mean the Romans have changed there armies again and again, if they had the money and the right emperor they would sooner or later reformed there armies.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Nice Work

  15. #55

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    @Ingen, you were so quick to prove me wrong that you didn't read the "relied heavily" part. Lol.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Lol. No. I did read it, which is exactly the reason why I posted. There are no clear indications of the numbers of soldiers participating in battle on Nicaean side but again according to Chronicle a foreign contingent was reaching 6000 men. When average Nicaea Army was reaching (quoting wiki) : "The total number of troops under Michael VIII was about 20,000 men; the mobile force numbered 15,000 men, while the town garrisons totaled 5,000 men". That is a significant number so to say that Michael relied heavily on mercenaries is not inappropriate.

    But nvm. I'm looking forward to an answer from Ltd. to my initial post.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Whether mercs or not, couldn't they get clones of Genoese crossbowmen and cannons? Like Mercenary Chian/Black Sea Crossbowmen, Mercenary Galatan culverin + crew, etc. Maybe Venetians for this or something else? Would be a nice flavour to show the Byzantine/Italian intermingling.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    @zsimmortal, Latin Empire?

  19. #59

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Quote Originally Posted by Slytacular View Post
    @zsimmortal, Latin Empire?
    No for the Late Byzantines. Genoese soldiers fought with the Empire, most notably in 1453. But Chios was given to the Republic, as was Galata.

  20. #60
    sobaos's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: "Byzantine Empire" HIGH and LATE ERA units

    Why the heavy infantry cost more than the skoutatoi swordmen when their stats are worst ?

    And is it going to be more units to nicaean empire or its definitely done, because in my opinion the roster lacks late heavy cavalry.

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