Playing as Empire, Chaos or VC = Greenskins stomp the southern map everytime!

[Solsbeary]

Ok, so turn 60 I'm on in my VC.

The greenskins own everything in the south, inc Karaz-a-Karak, and all as far north as Zhufbar. Zhufbar dwarves, Barak Varr, The Dwarves, Karak Azul, all defeated.
They have been Rank 1 power for all but the first 5 turns, Grimgor and his waaargh are always moving together.
The AI simply cant cope with a waaaaargh advance, it doesnt know to build a 2nd stack to combat it, or to ally and link up to take Grimgor and/or waaaargh down.

This also happened during my Empire and Chaos Campaigns.

Waaargh is just too OP if in a scenario of just AI. Playing as Dwarves i was able with just Barak Varr to hold off the advance and pretty much had them in my pockets until the moment i chose to defeat them.
The balancing is waaaay out with it to the point it really doesnt fit lore or the game mechanics very well.

It's my only major criticism of the whole game and impacts on my enjoyment of it.

[gyabo]

Are you using any mod that increase tax or any mod??? You do know greenskin have cheaper units than any other faction?? Have you tried to allied w/ other dwarfs faction as making them a buffer zone and if you have enough income you can put an army there to help the dwarf. Putting your army w/ allied faction will replenish them. Never played Chaos before so i have know clue maybe just avoid them and focus destroying the empire.

[Solsbeary]

The only mod im using is the Legendary lord start. otherwise its vanilla!

And its difficult to ally myself with dwarf factions who decide to declare on me already all the time. Maybe if their eyes shifted southwards and not on me they'd still be here to do something

10-15 turns later Zhufbar is destroyed now, colonised by greenskins, but I've since razed the whole province. They are still rank 1, but have lost a key ally in the faction led by Azhag, who is drawing the empires ire.
Also Kadrin have started pushing down the east flank. So their momentum has definitely slowed.

[Ichon]

Greenskins win in the south 75% of the time if you as player don't help Dwarfs out in some way but Dwarf can occasionally rebound when they start confederating. Usually Greenskins advance to 20+ regions fairly fast and then to get to 30+ it takes 100 turns from what I've seen. So yes they are often #1 strength until Chaos invasion briefly eclipses them but if you help Dwarfs much it can be quite even and nearly stalemate.

[Chromium]

Greenskins win in the south 75% of the time if you as player don't help Dwarfs out in some way but Dwarf can occasionally rebound when they start confederating. Usually Greenskins advance to 20+ regions fairly fast and then to get to 30+ it takes 100 turns from what I've seen. So yes they are often #1 strength until Chaos invasion briefly eclipses them but if you help Dwarfs much it can be quite even and nearly stalemate.

The problem here is if you're playing VH Empire or VC, you can't really venture out before having walls raised in your cities. And the economy is so challenging that maintaining even 2 stakes is a nightmare. Sacking greenskin settlements doesn't seem to give much gold either- so chevachee is out of the question as well.

Secondly- in every campaign I've seen, Grimgor allies with the Savage Orks and crushes everything before him. There hasn't been a single campaign I've played where he didn't get to 30 regions within 50 turns. This is unbalanced.

[gary0044187]

The problem here is if you're playing VH Empire or VC, you can't really venture out before having walls raised in your cities. And the economy is so challenging that maintaining even 2 stakes is a nightmare. Sacking greenskin settlements doesn't seem to give much gold either- so chevachee is out of the question as well.

Secondly- in every campaign I've seen, Grimgor allies with the Savage Orks and crushes everything before him. There hasn't been a single campaign I've played where he didn't get to 30 regions within 50 turns. This is unbalanced.

Oh man, this really makes me want to play Grand Campaign as the Border Princes or with LL Alternate Start for Azhog where I intentionally fight him. My previous Alternate Start as Kazad Kadrin didn't turn out this way though, Dwarfs and Barak Varr had conquered fully half of the badlands and the other southern dwarves were still holding out. My Dwarf campaign, I propped up both Barak Varr and the other southern guys and they were doing so well that I couldn't convince them to join me .

[Chromium]

Oh man, this really makes me want to play Grand Campaign as the Border Princes or with LL Alternate Start for Azhog where I intentionally fight him. My previous Alternate Start as Kazad Kadrin didn't turn out this way though, Dwarfs and Barak Varr had conquered fully half of the badlands and the other southern dwarves were still holding out. My Dwarf campaign, I propped up both Barak Varr and the other southern guys and they were doing so well that I couldn't convince them to join me .

I just can't make any sense of posts like this. My observations from online battles is that Ork units are not only very cheap for their cost, they fight better than other factions. I've yet to lose one when playing with them and yet to win one against them. Most of the people I've faced online have said the exact same thing.

In none of my non-dwarf campaigns, have I seen the dwarves even hold out 50 turns against the Green tide.

So I just can't understand how people on this forum not only think the Orks are balanced but see their AI dwarves hold out and win against Orks. I just can't explain it. When I post this, some wacko or the other invariably turns up singing about how 'Chromium can't fight'. This is apologism at its worst. We can't be having two different general opinions prevalent among players- one on Steam and one here.

[gary0044187]

dunno man, i have seen the dwarfs hold out modded and unmodded. it's especially bad if you are playing KK up in the north and need to conquer or consolidate with the other dwarfs and they are doing just fine with out you. Oh another situation I experienced where orcs were not doing so hot. I saw the bloody spears do a pretty standard start for them which is to zerg 2-3 weak stacks through that pass between border princes and shwarzofen, this pissed off both shwarz and VC which got both to declare war on the bloody spearz and destroy all of those stacks and raze the one territory they took in zhufbar. even sent a portion of their armies south to deal with them in the badlands. needless to say, I was a bit confused about it.

[Dorkus_Malorkus]

I just can't make any sense of posts like this. My observations from online battles is that Ork units are not only very cheap for their cost, they fight better than other factions. I've yet to lose one when playing with them and yet to win one against them. Most of the people I've faced online have said the exact same thing.

In none of my non-dwarf campaigns, have I seen the dwarves even hold out 50 turns against the Green tide.

So I just can't understand how people on this forum not only think the Orks are balanced but see their AI dwarves hold out and win against Orks. I just can't explain it. When I post this, some wacko or the other invariably turns up singing about how 'Chromium can't fight'. This is apologism at its worst. We can't be having two different general opinions prevalent among players- one on Steam and one here.

The Waagh is a very strong bonus, a full stack for free is terrifying. It is true that defeating the Orcs in one or two battles will result in their collapse pretty quickly because when Orcs start to lose, they crumble. Interesting that people are complaining about the Orc units and claiming they are too powerful. Most of the battles I have fought with the Orcs were pretty balanced early game (Dwarfs seemed to handle themselves).

Might be interesting to experiment with the AI in battles and see which are more powerful.

[gary0044187]

So my most recent games I considered the no AI cheat mod. this led to the dwarves winning 90% of the time. Problem is that dwarfs tend to have an easier time controlling public order and corruption, while greenskins don't. So Waagh allows greenskins to crush dwarfs temporarily, but after a while, greenskin rebels show up and start taking chunks out of that green empire. then dwarfs roll in with a couple of doom stacks. gg dwarfs.

[Chromium]

THANK YOU!!!

Finally someone other than me mentions the fact that the Orks are OP in this game.

1- In 5 campaigns I've completed in TWW, the only time the Greenskins didn't rule the South was when I was playing as dwarves. Even so, my H Dwarves campaign was tougher than my VH Empire, VC, AND Chaos ones.

2- In over 20 online battles, I've played Greenskins 6 times. Every time I've wiped the floor with my opponent. The 4 times I've played against them, I've been defeated.

3- The Ork units are too cheap, too tough, and when combined with the Waaghs, are a challenge enough for the Human player- to say nothing of the AI.

But for some reason, posting any of this leads to a sea of people coming in to mock you about being a noob or something. No wonder we've been hearing of people ditching this place for the official forums! For my next campaign, I'm going to lessen Ork morale by 20. Let them be violent cowards without discipline, That's what the lore says anyway.

[Fallen851]

THANK YOU!!!

Finally someone other than me mentions the fact that the Orks are OP in this game.

I've said it several times, and it isn't just in the campaign. In multiplayer, the Orcs are just too cost efficient and can field effective units of each type.

[Chromium]

I've said it several times, and it isn't just in the campaign. In multiplayer, the Orcs are just too cost efficient and can effective units of each type.

My observations as well and something borne out by most of the people I've asked also.

I've played more than 20 Mp battles (around 10 with or against Orks) and am personally yet to see anyone winning against an Ork army myself. Their units are just too good for the cost.

[Stangler]

Orcs are by far the easiest faction to play and are also too powerful in auto-resolve.

I am pretty sure they get more gold from sacking and from combat than dwarfs. Plus when playing as the orcs it is pretty easy to get a WAAGH! up and running which gives you such a huge advantage that you can easily take the major Dwarf strongholds quickly. Meanwhile your stronghold is pretty much impenetrable and is really the only settlement you need to worry about keeping and investing in early on.

In a fair fight the orcs can have a hard time against dwarfs. If they out number them things can go bad for the dwarfs really fast as they lose their ability to take advantage of their ranged superiority. This tactical advantage is even bigger in sieges and the underway which isn't reflected in the auto-resolve calc. All of this tends to mean that when the computer plays itself the orcs will likely win more than they should.

[gary0044187]

dwarves get a 75% reduction in gold earned by sacking so yeah, orcs definitely do get more money that way.

[Stangler]

dwarves get a 75% reduction in gold earned by sacking so yeah, orcs definitely do get more money that way.

OK that makes sense. As orks you naturally want to raid and sack non stop so this advantage is huge.

[Stangler]

To give an idea at how OP the orcs are... in my latest campaign (on VH) with the orcs I was able to have a WAAAGH! army following my armies around the vast majority of the time. So when I was able to afford one army I fielded two. When I was able to afford 2 I had 4. I used 3 (6) to conquer the southern part of the map. I can send them where ever I want so I could use them to conquer a big city one turn and send them off to conquer a minor settlement for me on the same turn all without getting my main army out of position. Plus it would be healing up. When I did need to heal up I would just park them in enemy territory and raid.

So if my competition was at all equal in economy I am fielding about twice as many soldiers and attacking twice as many places at any given time. They take one settlement from me I can take two from them. If they want to try and take my capital they have to bring two armies. That means I can either attack them directly with my 4 or use those 4 to take their settlements. I am taking far less casualties as well and all of the losses by the WAAAGH! are pretty meaningless. If it dies it will be back.

All of this left plenty of money for developing my settlements which just snowballs into complete dominance. I do have to build more happiness buildings but they also counter corruption which is a major advantage.

Plus all that fighting means your heroes are really high in level. For the orcs a rebellion is actually a good thing as it gives you money, fightiness, and experience/loot.

One thing I really like about the orcs is that you want to think like a orc. You are not interested in developing your economy nearly as much as you just want to build an army and attack. You don't really want to waste time baby sitting some settlement you just conquered. Instead you move onto the next one and keep attacking. Eventually you will be rich, with a WAAAGH! army at your back and your enemy will be running for their life. Then you can start worrying about taking settlements to hold them but not because you are defending them but because no one is around to take it from you.

I think one of the saving graces for the dwarfs is the fact that the AI uses a lot of skirmisher cav which is relatively easy to counter as a dwarf. They are annoying at first but once you learn to deal with them they are not a problem. If they used less of those and more wolf or boar riders I think they would be far more difficult to beat.

Ohh and those raiders from the north that show up on your shores around tun 95 or so with 4 stacks... I had no army in the area so I quickly built one with savage orcs (just base infantry and archers). I also had a good hero (lvl 20). One stack vs one stack was easy and all 4 stacks were gone within 10 turns.

That said I am sure I could have beat them with a stack of dwarfs as well. Although it would have taken longer to make and cost more.

[gyabo]

In a lore Orks are supposed to be OP because of Grimgor. Grimgor is the only one who kicks chaos balls literally. Love what CA did to them?? Playing as a dwarf i need to be defensive and crush there army quickly before they can make waargh and my quarellers are capable destroying them. Playing as Orks my army have the worst morale but good powerhouse infantry and best diplomatic gameplay i ever played in all TW game.

CA really did a good job w/ the Greenskins in my opinion. Hopefully CA will not balance them.

[gary0044187]

yeah I don't doubt that greenskins are kind of easy to play, the only one I got rekt in was a very hard with azhog's alternate starting position and that was only bad because I chose, belligerently to try to hold my starting position, even with the vampire counts, shwarz (kemmler's alt position), empire, stirland (gelt's alt position), tilia, and two of the western dwarven lords at war with me at the same time. I ended up having to call that one after the top knotz rolled up on me as well (seriously though, how far out of their way did they have to go?).

[gyabo]

yeah I don't doubt that greenskins are kind of easy to play, the only one I got rekt in was a very hard with azhog's alternate starting position and that was only bad because I chose, belligerently to try to hold my starting position, even with the vampire counts, shwarz (kemmler's alt position), empire, stirland (gelt's alt position), tilia, and two of the western dwarven lords at war with me at the same time. I ended up having to call that one after the top knotz rolled up on me as well (seriously though, how far out of their way did they have to go?).

In my opinion they are the most easiest to play in the game due there only enemy are the dwarf also grimgor is amazing can kill dwarf lord much faster. I can confederate w/ my first ork enemy in normal campaign. Then destroying the dwarfs i have there lands and more money to field more Greenskin army Waaargh. There units are decent just don't recruit the goblins as meatshield but for support like doom diver, range unit and cavalry.