AE Test Feedback

[ABH2]

THIS THREAD IS FOR FEEDBACK ON THE TEST PACK ONLY. DO NOT REQUEST A COPY HERE. WE HAVE A SEPARATE THREAD FOR THAT. WHEN WE CLOSE SIGN-UP, IT IS CLOSED FOR THIS ROUND OF TESTING. PERIOD.

Small fix for an issue that was causing a CTD with the nomadic factions:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...2YwZ3BTUFZsMXM

This is the thread for all testers to provide their feedback. Copy and pasting the PM sent out to the testing group for reference. If you have any suggestions on the organization of the testing process, feel free to let us know.

Also useful, Ancient Empires Guide for battle mechanics.

Hello everyone. PLEASE READ THIS MESSAGE. I do not want to be condescending to any of you, but with this process I would like to avoid dealing with people who cannot follow simple instructions (not to say you should avoid asking questions). This will be our fifth public test of the mod. We have made quite a bit of progress since then and this time around, every faction in custom battles has its own unique roster. This remains custom battles only for now (our last such test before campaign features). A few ground rules:

• Please do not share our work without our permission.
• You are free to post screenshots/videos as you see fit.
• In the sign-up thread, some of you picked factions or gave multiple. I have listed you for any faction you have requested. This does not mean you are obligated to do full reports for all, though we would appreciate it.
• You are free to test and provide feedback on any faction you want. We just wanted to get as much coverage from our testers as possible. We know some of these factions are obscure.
• Provide all feedback in this designated thread.
• Please report all CTD's! That should be an obvious one, but those are always the primary focus.
• Testers who prove themselves particularly valuable will gain access to our developer forum where they can provide feedback on ideas that haven't been made public and get early news.

The spoiler tags contain the factions you guys expressed interest in:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Akaian League - COWMAN55
Aetolian League - Iaius Statius Laurentius
Arevaci - Hassassins
Armenia - Seresox
Arverni - Sandraker
Media Atropatene
Axum
Baktria - Agent2P
Bithynia
Blemmyes
Cantabri - sertorio67
Carpetani
Carthage - COWMAN55
Cessetani
Cimbri
Bosporan Kingdom
Daci
Dalmatae
Edetani
Epirote League - Beast Within
Galatia - Sandraker
Gallaeci
Garamantia
Gortyna
Helisii
Iceni
Illercavones
Liguria - lufc2806
Lusitani - sertorio67
Macedon - jayvikings57
Marcomanni - doejoe
Massilia - Sandraker
Mauri (North African 'berber'/Moorish tribe)
Kingdom of Kush (North Africans)
Nabatea (Arabs)
Massylii (Numidians)
Odrysian Kingdom
Parthia - Apio Claudio
Pergamon - Malarkey95
Pontus - Seresox
Ptolemaic Kingdom - Iaius Statius Laurentius
Rhodos
Roman Republic - Sir_Pee_Alot, Apio Claudio
Roman Empire - Sir_Pee_Alot, Apio Claudio
Roxolani
Saba
Sakas
Seleucid - dane323
Tauri (Scythians)
Turdetani

Below I am providing a general survey you can, but are not required, to use for 'reports' you provide giving your feedback. Rate the following items on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being poor, and 10 being exceptional. Others ask you to provide some basic data, though if you have any specific feedback or extra detail on any, feel free to provide in the forum thread/provided link:

• Machine performance-Rate on a scale of 1-10. Do battles lag or lag too much for you? What is your framerate like?
• User Interface-Rate on a scale of 1-10 how you would rate the appearance of the UI. If any particular issues arise or areas are unreadable, please report.
• Battle length-How long are your battles lasting, on average? Specificy how many units are fighting on each side, as well.
• Battle Length Preference-How long would you like battles to last, on average?
• Unit Morale-Rate your thoughts on unit morale on a scale of 1-10. This is based on whether you think units held as long as you think they should have held. If they did not hold as long as you thought they should, which units and why do you think they should have held longer?
• Deployment Zones-Our deployment zones have been moved closer to one another and changed. Did you notice, and did you like the change? Would you like deployment zones potentially closer, or farther apart?
• Unit Balance-Do elite units act like elite units? Did some skirmisher unit eat up your cavalry? Let us know with the specific name of the unit.
• Displayed Unit Stats-Did you find the unit statistics intuitive and easy to understand?
  Light Infantry Movement Speed-Rate your satisfaction with light unit/skirmisher movement speed, 1-10. How fast do you think they should be?
• Medium Infantry Movement SpeedRate your satisfaction with medium infantry movement speed, 1-10. These are units such as lighter thureophoroi and even thorakitai. How fast do you think they should move?
• Heavy Infantry Movement Speed-Rate your satisfaction heavy infantry movement speed, 1-10. How fast do you think they should be?
• Phalanx Movement Speed-Rate your satisfaction with phalanx movement speed, 1-10. How fast do you think they should be?
• Cavalry Movement Speed-Rate your satisfaction with cavalry movement speed, 1-10. How fast do you think they should be?
• Missile Damage-Were your skirmisher units useful? Did you feel the need to use them? Do you think they do enough or too much damage?
• Historical Accruacy/Authenticity of Units-Rate on a scale of 1-10. This one is a bit subjective, but basically I am asking - do you buy the units? Do you think they are an accurate or authentic representation of soldiers in the ancient world? If not, where (what units) and why not?
• Overall Unit Appearance-Rate on a scale of 1-10. Do you like the look of the units, disregarding your response to the above?
• Importance of historical accuracy to you-Rate how much you value historical accuracy/authenticity on a scale of 1 to 10.
• New Animations-Please provide feedback on the new animations added to units. Do they seem accurate or how you pictured ancient military units moving/fighting? Did you like how they played? If you answered no, please tell us why.
• Clipping or missing models-Self-explanatory. Did you notice any clipping of unit models (things that don't look right, conflict), or were any units missing pieces?

Obviously, feedback you can provide is not limited to the above. But those are the places to start.

Thanks
The Ancient Empires Team

[ABH2]

A few notes on issues we are already tracking or things we plan to work on still:

• Cantabri faction does not have unit colors currently set so they are all black (Lusitani has a black color scheme, by comparison). This will be fixed.
• Aetolian, Achaean, and Carthaginian roster appearance will be reworked. Carthage will be 'toned' down, so to speak.
• Elephants and chariots are not completely balanced. We are aware of this. We included them in the test pack to play with, but we don't need 50 test reports telling us this.

Those are the main things you guys should be aware of.

[Tenerife_Boy]

Missed UI card
+

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

General's shield bug
+

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Missed crest
+

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Weird green texture.
+

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

+ Mercenary Rodhian Slingers has 300 of range (haven't checked others)...that's way too much for an arm so it's kinda gamish and not realistic. Imho, the only difference between elite skirmishers and regular ones should be the kill rate using their primary weapons plus maybe a bit more efficient with the secondary weapon.

[Sandraker]

Two battles so far, both are Massilia vs Arverni, with me first as Massilia, then as Arverni.
Battle difficulty: Hard
Battle size: Ultra or huge, whatever the max setting is.

Battle 1:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

• Machine performance-10 I suppose. 60+ FPS (albiet not on a large battle). I have a GTX570 so my settings were all pretty low.
• User Interface-7. I noticed that some light colored marble stuff in the main menu make it hard to see the white text.
• Battle length-20 minutes. 2670 on my side, 4500 on the enemy side
• Battle Length Preference- I like it like this. The pre-battle march is a bit on the long side though it may be the AI just deploying far back.
• Unit Morale- Morale felt great. Units quickly turned tail when facing an enemy that clearly counters them (One of my heavy cavalry units got intercepted by levy freemen, resulting in horrifying casualties). However, it seems that it seems to take more than 70% casualties to break, unless these are post-rout casualties I'm seeing. My guys were
• Deployment Zones- I'd like them to be a bit closer I suppose? I don't know, maybe it was just the AI.
• Unit Balance- Felt good. Elite units were devestating, I guess that's their point
• Displayed Unit Stats- I honestly didn't bother to check! I picked units and deployed them more based on their name than anything else.
  Light Infantry Movement Speed- 8. Felt great in this fight, more to that in battle 2.
• Medium Infantry Movement Speed 10, the levy freemen did great against my cavalry without being sanic hedgehegs.
• Heavy Infantry Movement Speed-I'll give it a temporary 8 as I didn't quite focus on this enough, although no unit felt too fast or slow.
• Phalanx Movement Speed-No proper phalanxes were employed on my side.
• Cavalry Movement Speed-8, same as heavy inf.
• Missile Damage- I only deployed archers this round. They caused quite the morale shock to the enemy with flank shots.
• Historical Accruacy/Authenticity of Units- 7/10. Massilia's roster is very limited at the moment. For example, there are no javelin skirmishers, light/missile cav, and all melee infantry are mercenaries. In my thread about this faction I argued that Massilia is a sort of blank slate faction with a lot of creative freedom. Being situated on a cultural crossroads, you could come up with a lot of speculative units that represent cultural intermingling caused by (entirely fictional) Massilian expansionism.
• Overall Unit Appearance- 7 - Adding to the speculative, "what-if" sort of theme that goes with my interpretation of Massilia, it would perhaps be neat to have some of the men wearing random trinkets and whatnot from the local cultures. Cloaks with Celtic-style patterns on them, for example.
• Importance of historical accuracy to you-7 I'd say. To steal a motto used by paleoartists "in case of lack of evidence, speculate wildly". Factions that didn't become major powers historically inevitably will become major powers ingame. To account for this, all faction rosters should have historically plausible units that account for this.
• New Animations- Didn't really look out for them, sorry.
• Clipping or missing models-Same, didn't look out for them I'm afraid.

• Misc Note: The AI had deployables, which they inevitably ran into themselves as is Total War tradition. I made sure to get rid of them for the next battle.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Leaving out some redundant points that were addressed by the first report.

• Battle length- 25:46. Much of this was taken up by marching, I'm afraid.
• Battle Length Preference- 20 minutes.
• Unit Morale- 10/10 in this one! My plan was to use my 2 skirmisher and 2 archer units to bait the enemy infantry towards my spear wall. Due to some mismanagement I lost 2 units, the other two routed before they took heavy casualties, they regrouped after reaching my line
• Deployment Zones- I definitely would like units to get a bit closer.
• Unit Balance- The Celtic slingers I gave to Massilia have a really long range. Afaik they're not a proper elite slinger unit, which makes me wonder if that should be that way. Other than that, every single unit performed in a very intuitive way. On e interesting side note: My 1 unit of Naked Fanatics did an amazing rear charge on a unit of Massalian Picked Men who were tied up fighting a unit of levy freemen. They were so devastating that the Massalians shattered on impact, with my fanatics taking 0 casualties in the engagement. This is very much how I pictured this type of shock infantry working. If they're quick to take casualties in a prolonged engagement then they're a very fun unit indeed.
• Displayed Unit Stats-Didn't check again
• Phalanx Movement Speed- I can't find a good number for this. If we call the Spear Wall a phalanx unit, they felt like they were perhaps a bit too nimble in the charge considering their massive spears.
• Missile Damage- Oh those youths were lethal alright! Definitely glass cannon material.
• Historical Accruacy/Authenticity of Units- The Gallic units all felt plausible and diverse. There's one gap that I think could be filled though: A late game, sword-armed equivalent to the spear wall, more professionalized than the Warband but without the elite status of the nobles.
• Overall Unit Appearance-I'll give it a 7 - It's a matter of taste, but I think that the Celtic Spear Wall should have helmets on all their heads, reflecting the move towards more organization and professionalism.

Regarding Battle AI: In this fight, my initial skirmish caused the enemy to send in a couple units of infantry that promplty ran into my line, where they got annihilated due to my local numerical superiority. I then mopped up the remnants. The enemy would have had a far better chance, had they either retreated the units that chased my skirmishers or comitted more men to their charge.

Overall these fights immediately felt way better than regular R2 or Attila. There's definitely a lot of that intuitiveness you guys aimed for. Great job so far!

[Sandraker]

I've been getting crashes in battles, right as the fight starts. The crashes seem to depend on either factions or specific units, haven't quite come to the bottom of it.

Crash 1 involved Pontus and Galatia, it crashed every time the units began engaging each other. I tried Galatia against a different faction with no crashes. Note that I repeated this battle numerous times, with crashes resulting every time.

Crash 2 happened almost exactly the same as the first, but with Armenia vs Sakas. Going off on a stupid hunch, the crashes seem to involve factions that have shock cavalry and horse archer units.

[ABH2]

Small fix for an issue that was causing a CTD with the nomadic factions:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...2YwZ3BTUFZsMXM

[Sheridan]

There is a slight chance the crashes are caused by dismounting. Some cavalry lack defined spacing values while being dismounted, resulting in an immediate crash upon the AI using that mechanic. This isn't necessarily the problem, but the possibility is real. There could be other reasons behind though.

[Willhelm123]

The AI doesn't dismount, it was definitely loose spacings causing it, but yeah don't dismount your cav for now.

[mzocker]

Here my feedback after three battles I fought so far.
All in all I have to say I'm impressed! You have come a long way since the first beta versions! Congrats guys! Keep up the great work!!
I finally have to say, that this is the Rome 2 that I always wanted . Really locking forward to my first campaign!!!!

Machine performance- 7. about 30 fps. My config is: GTX 770, i5 2500k, 8GB RAM
User Interface- 9
Battle length-about 20 minutes I would say on a battle 20 vs 20
Battle Length Preference-10 minutes?
Unit Morale-6. Some units hold very long. I noticed that cavalry, even top tier, routs pretty quickly. That should be improved.
Deployment Zones-is fine
Light Infantry Movement Speed-10
Medium Infantry Movement Speed-10
Heavy Infantry Movement Speed-10
Phalanx Movement Speed-10
Cavalry Movement Speed-10
Missile Damage-Skirmisher units so far did little damage (played as rome an macedon so far). The pila of my legionaries also did not much damage. About 4 men killed out of 240 with 2 volleys. Is the one hit point system used?
Overall Unit Appearance-10
Importance of historical accuracy to you-7. It's important but I'm willing to make sacrifices.
New Animations-Like in DEI I just don't like the new animation for the legionaries be used all the time. Even if the enemy is miles away they use this new animation which is weird. I believe DEI is implementing something new. I hope this improves my issue with this. This is a personal preference though and I hope you guys can provide a submod that puts the old animations back in place
Clipping or missing models-The ala Batavorum hang in the air when killed.

Other things:
-the game itself takes ages to start now.
-Praetorians don't have the options of shield wall like the legionaries. I think that is weird.
-A companion cavalry of the seleucids attacked one of my archers full charged and managed to kill about 15. That is far to ineffective in my opinion
-Cavalry head on against pikes is a massacre among the cavalry...

[Willhelm123]

Mzocker, we had an error making all weapons hugely effective against cavalry, we released a hotfix to fix it, i think you are lacking that judging by your feedback. Thanks your feedback, try out javelin skirmishers some more, they usually rack up about 40-60 kills through missiles.

[Beast Within]

I have played out around 4 Battles so far which are as follows:

Epirote League Vs Achaian League – I won
Epirote League Vs Roman Empire – I won
Roman Empire Vs Epirote League – I Lost
Epirote League Vs Kushites (Online Battle) - I won

Along with this I have played several small battles out to pit units against units. I will explain this shortly. Firstly I will run through the questions supplied by you. And then discuss my feelings after that and any findings that don’t relate to the given questions.

All battles were played out at normal Difficulty and using Ultra unit size.

• Machine performance-Frames vary obviously expected however the lowest I saw while in battle was approximately 30FPS, on average it ran at around 50FPS, this is with ultra unit size and the majority of settings set to maximum. I run a gtx 970 and i7 4770k both of which are overclocked. This was for a 20vs20 battle. I should note that I used the dust mod also which petellius supplied so this may of also caused some hit on performance.
• User Interface-Interface is very good, 9/10. Couple of issues with text colour clashing with background, this has already been discussed with UMCenturion however.
• Battle length-The battles on average lasted about 20mins. However that did include several minutes at the start for deployment which did seem to take quite some time.
• Battle Length Preference-I feel the length the battles are lasting are fine. Its hard to put a number on it as it all depends on how the battle plays out. The main thing is to ensure that there is a meaningful encounter and that not too much time is wasted through deployment phases if you like. I did encounter a rather lengthy skirmisher phase in one of the battles, however this was good, I was very pleased to see the enemy making use of there skirmishers rather than running straight into battle.
• Unit Morale-8/10. On the most part I think this was very good. And I understand and like the philosophy you are putting in place. However I have found that generals quite often run far sooner than other units, and have a major knock on effect to the rest of the army and wondered whether this was intended.
• Deployment Zones-I think the deployment zones are based to far apart from my experience, they could definitely be moved somewhat closer to one another.
• Unit Balance-So far I haven’t seen any issues with unit balance though I will be checking this more thoroughly soon. I do also have concern about the Roman forces, which I will discuss later.
• Displayed Unit Stats-10/10 easy to understand and view.
  Movement speeds as a whole – All were fine I didn’t notice any issues with any of these.
• Missile Damage-As far as I could tell I think that the missile system currently in place is working very well.
• Historical Accruacy/Authenticity of Units-10/10 some of the best unit rosters I have seen.
• Overall Unit Appearance-10/10, slight issue with the cohors of rome all having golden eagles on top of their standards but this issue has already been raised in Slack.
• Importance of historical accuracy to you-8/10, as I like a very historical game, but it is important that it is functional and everything has a purpose.
• New Animations-The battlefield looks dynamic and frankly amazing at this point. I love the whole feel and epicness.
• Clipping or missing models-Not at this point though I haven’t paid too much attention to this at this point.

In terms of how the battles played out, there were really fun, full of twist and turns with regards to who was ‘winning’. My only main concern at this point is the roman cohors and their prices. I was able to fight of a roman imperial cohort worth 830 with a 375 phalanx unit within the epirote league. The cohort each time fled with approximately 180 men left while my unit only lost approximately 15. I tested this several times to ensure it wasn’t just a fluke, the end result was the same every time. Clearly the romans will have a hard time fighting against phalanxes at least. I will do further tests with regards to this using other units, but the two fights I fought one against the romans and one as the exact same roman army both ended up in defeat. Simply put the romans just didn’t have the man power to match the epirotes. I also didn’t have necessarily high tier units so as I say their pricing is a major concern for me.

[mzocker]

Mzocker, we had an error making all weapons hugely effective against cavalry, we released a hotfix to fix it, i think you are lacking that judging by your feedback. Thanks your feedback, try out javelin skirmishers some more, they usually rack up about 40-60 kills through missiles.

Okay. Where can I find it? It's not the one mentioned above, is it?

[NateTheGreat1990]

I will provide the my filled out general survey soon, have been busy with some stuff so haven't had the time to fill out the questions.

I did notice whenever I move some units in a locked formation to another position they kind of act odd.
Pictures below:
http://imgur.com/a/R9xbz

[Apio Claudio]

I will eventually give a full and detailed opinion but i came across something wierd, when i was pulled my cavalry back 2 stacks broke and ran awaqy from battle and then a unit of roman archers left with them. Both cavalry squadrons had lost a total of 16 men. Apart from that i was happy to see that the A.I. uses defenses when defending on a normal battle but if i get to close they will try to get me and kill their own units on pits an stakes

[Willhelm123]

It is yes, just load it up alongside the main file

[jayvikings57]

Hey everyone,

I have played 4 battles as Macedon.

Macedon V Rome (lost)
Macedon V Rome (lost)
Macedon V Nabatea (won)
Macedon V Nabatea (won)


Machine performance-Rate on a scale of 1-10. Do battles lag or lag too much for you? What is your framerate like?

No lag for me. Battles were smooth throughout. 10/10

User Interface-Rate on a scale of 1-10 how you would rate the appearance of the UI. If any particular issues arise or areas are unreadable, please report.

Really liked the UI. Some suggestions: the white writing was sometimes hard to see in options menu.

Battle length-How long are your battles lasting, on average? Specify how many units are fighting on each side, as well.

The four battles lasted between 10 and 15 minutes.

Battle Length Preference-How long would you like battles to last, on average?

I would prefer battles to be a little longer with a higher kill ratio, but I understand your philosophy for the mod.

Unit Morale-Rate your thoughts on unit morale on a scale of 1-10. This is based on whether you think units held as long as you think they should have held. If they did not hold as long as you thought they should, which units and why do you think they should have held longer?

Just a personal preference but I prefer units to hold for longer. My cavalry routed very easily.
Some of the enemy missile units routed without doing much in the battle. (Not true for Rome)

Deployment Zones-Our deployment zones have been moved closer to one another and changed. Did you notice, and did you like the change? Would you like deployment zones potentially closer, or farther apart?

I think the deployment zones are a little far apart.

Unit Balance-Do elite units act like elite units? Did some skirmisher unit eat up your cavalry? Let us know with the specific name of the unit.

Loved the Macedon elite Pikes. Held their own V the Romans, but eventually my inferior troops let the side down. (Props on the massive pikes!)

Displayed Unit Stats-Did you find the unit statistics intuitive and easy to understand?

yes, very straightforward


Light Infantry Movement Speed-Rate your satisfaction with light unit/skirmisher movement speed, 1-10. How fast do you think they should be?

· Medium Infantry Movement Speed Rate your satisfaction with medium infantry movement speed, 1-10. These are units such as lighter thureophoroi and even thorakitai. How fast do you think they should move? 10/10

· Heavy Infantry Movement Speed-Rate your satisfaction heavy infantry movement speed, 1-10. How fast do you think they should be? 10/10

· Phalanx Movement Speed-Rate your satisfaction with phalanx movement speed, 1-10. How fast do you think they should be? 10/10

· Cavalry Movement Speed-Rate your satisfaction with cavalry movement speed, 1-10. How fast do you think they should be? 10/10


· Missile Damage-Were your skirmisher units useful? Did you feel the need to use them? Do you think they do enough or too much damage?

Missile units seemed a little bit under powered. Slingers didn’t have much of an impact.


Historical Accuracy/Authenticity of Units-Rate on a scale of 1-10. This one is a bit subjective, but basically I am asking - do you buy the units? Do you think they are an accurate or authentic representation of soldiers in the ancient world? If not, where (what units) and why not?

I thought things were a very good representation of the ancient world. But I am no expert.


Overall Unit Appearance-Rate on a scale of 1-10. Do you like the look of the units, disregarding your response to the above? 10/10


Importance of historical accuracy to you-Rate how much you value historical accuracy/authenticity on a scale of 1 to 10.

I am a fan of historical accuracy. 8/10 importance.

New Animations-Please provide feedback on the new animations added to units. Do they seem accurate or how you pictured ancient military units moving/fighting? Did you like how they played? If you answered no, please tell us why.

Everything looked great from the perspective of animations.

Clipping or missing models-Self-explanatory. Did you notice any clipping of unit models (things that don't look right, conflict), or were any units missing pieces?

I did not notice any missing models

I will report on more battles when I play some more.

Some other things:
Hoping Macedon get some more units. Roster felt light.
Loved that Rome beat me. They are tough, as they should be. The legions look great.

[est Dudus]

I will be doing a video report on all this, but two points that I have found in every battle.

General units need to be buffed up or their morale shock must be nerfed. Now, they don't need to have kill power, but when the AI throw their general unit in to battle they rout almost immediately. This ruins battles as the AI army falls apart...dramatically.

Please, for the love of god, do not make missile units more powerful...you guys have nailed this. I don't mind some adjusting...but in my eyes they are perfect. I use them to weaken units so my melee units kill the enemies....don't make missile units snipers! Great job.

Typing on on my phone so I will do a better written review in a day or so.

[Petellius]

I will be doing a video report on all this, but two points that I have found in every battle.

General units need to be buffed up or their morale shock must be nerfed. Now, they don't need to have kill power, but when the AI throw their general unit in to battle they rout almost immediately. This ruins battles as the AI army falls apart...dramatically.

Please, for the love of god, do not make missile units more powerful...you guys have nailed this. I don't mind some adjusting...but in my eyes they are perfect. I use them to weaken units so my melee units kill the enemies....don't make missile units snipers! Great job.

Typing on on my phone so I will do a better written review in a day or so.

The cavalry generals are probably the main problem here, as cav is a little more fragile. Not quite sure what I could do here without making them OP though.

Missiles are great, I love them too, you'll have to thank Sheridan/Philip for the balancing. I also made all missiles have realistic firing arcs as well, so they have the correct range and release speed (javelins excluded due to the skirmish distance of units).

[Apio Claudio]

There is a roman unit missing shield wall and attacking testudo, the XV marian cohort

[jacob.weiss45]

Battles are also kind of hard. Usually victor takes 20% causalities and loser takes 30%. The enemy attacks in formation and flanks. Somewhat easy for units to route once they lose 10-20% of their men but will often return and can change the tide of battle. Death of a general is significant.