Semisalis
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Will club infantry be finally be useful as anti-armor infantry or at least flanking infantry? Axemen at least have javelins that allow them to weaken their enemies in preparation for a melee battle. The only advantage they have besides their numbers is that they don't have javelins messing up their charge and as such they quite effective in charge attacks.
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
New comparisson: Hemithorakitai vs Jewish spearmen. I've already mentioned that the Hemithorakitai have a bigger armor value for no reason, but now I've noticed that their melee attack is a lot higher than the Jewish spearmen. It's 7 compared to 5. Can this be justified with professionalism or something else?
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
New one: Polybian Principes vs Nabatean Royal Guard. The issue is that they have the same armor rating (8), but the Nabateans have much better gear. The NRG is way too light, especially compared to other elite units.
Comparison:
1. Principes:
All have helmets
Most (or at least half) have greaves, some just on the leading leg.
Body armor: 2 maille, 1 linothorax, 2 small Italic breastplates
2. NRG
All have helmets
All have a pair of greaves
Body armor: 2 muscle cuirass, 2 metal scale armor, 1 leather spola
The NRG is much closer to the Sacred Band infantry, who have an armor rating of 11.
Last edited by Rad; September 20, 2016 at 02:03 AM.
EBII Hod Carrier
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
They're not elites, they're veterans, which means 9. Note Ambaktoi and Agrokunoi aren't retainers, they're semi-professionals. The flawed business of all the British roster all being either levies or elites has been rectified now.Originally Posted by Barnabas
Only the bodyguard versions get a 9, with a few exceptions. Note the recruitable version of Donno Eporedoi are a 6. Shield values have all been revised.
It's not so much that they're levy, but that they aren't melee combatants in the main. The Numidians were noted to be exceptional horsemen, which is why their skirmishers merit a 6.
Again, all the shield values have been reviewed and amended.
Celtic charioteers are retainers; these guys aren't.
Like the Numidians and Maures above, they're not melee cavalry.
They have the common cavalry thureos value of 3, now.
Hoplites are an exception to the 3/6/9 standard. Their defensive skill ranges from 3-6, with elites getting 9.
With the revision of shield values (aspis 6, thureos 5), that balances better than it did.
Again no, this is only for guard cavalry. They now have a 6, where the recruitable Celtic/British skirmisher cavalry have a 3 (because they're not melee combatants).
Theirs is now 7, altered when all shield values were changed.
No, 9 is the defensive skill for guard cavalry.
Already been changed.
9 because they're professional grade, sword-and-boarders.
As above, swordsmen get a boost.
They're not professional grade melee fighters.
Already changed.
Germanic levies are an exception, because they don't have the same clearly defined levy/semi-professional/professional/veteran tiers.
Theirs is a 5, same as a thureos.
They're semi-professionals like Hemithorakitai.
There are some small shields mixed in there (about half of them) thus the lower value.
Again, they're not melee fighters in the main, thus the lower defensive skill. It's pretty universal for most light skirmisher cavalry.
Theirs is 12; they're elites.
9 is for guard cavalry.
According to their description, they're only equivalent to the Khamis.
They're professionals, not elites. Note the size of the unit.
Same in all three cases - they're nobles which is why they get a 6, but they're not guard cavalry.
They've had an animation upgrade along with the swordsmen, which should make quite a big difference to their utility.
Hemithorakitai are semi-professionals, Ioudaioi are a better class of levy.
I've upped the Nabatu Agema to 10, but more importantly given them a proper infantry formation. They had an archer's one before. They'll also benefit from the animation changes to swords, axes and clubs.
Last edited by QuintusSertorius; September 22, 2016 at 06:56 AM.
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Mkay, sounds good. Remember to up the Jewish armor.
I had a look at the stats of the Galatinised infantry ingame. The swordsmen really do have a higher armor rating than the spearmen. The lack of maille on the new spearmen models makes sense now.
A higher class of warriors would own swords, but still primarily fight with spears if there was a tactical affinity - which for most of the ancient world, existed. It's wrong to give a unit more armor just because they have swords, instead of spears.
Instead, they should have the same models and defensive stats.
I understood the Galatinised infantry units as two units representing a single troop type's two different tactical roles, not an upper-lower class of soldier division.
That means that the spearmen should get the maille model, and swords (visually).
Just take a look at the Thureophoroi/Machairophoroi pair. Same troop type, same armor, same defensive stats. The only difference are weapons, because of two different tactical roles that troop type has.
Last edited by Rad; September 22, 2016 at 12:08 PM.
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
British retainers:
Same armor, or better to say, lack of armor on all 3 units.
The problem rises in the armor rating. Retainer swordsmen and cavalry have an armor rating of 1, but Retainer spearmen have an armor rating of 3, which is surely too high.
Error: British nobles, both infantry and cavalry, have 2 swords, one in hand, the other in the scabbard.
Pet peeve: Units with maille armor without helmets
Last edited by Rad; October 10, 2016 at 08:27 AM.
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Dear Rad,
As an oldtimer and avid player, I just want to say "thank you" for such an impressive support to EBII that hopefully will become as was EB, the mod for Kingdoms! In a way this brings the Real Combat of RR/RC into EBII.
Best regards,
FFJean
Last edited by FFJean; October 16, 2016 at 04:58 AM.
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Thank you sir! I may be annoying to the team at (most) times, but I really do want the best for the mod and the people playing it.
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Dear Rad,
Criticisms are always annoying, in some way. But I am sure that yours are seen for what they are, ie positive criticisms aimed at making the game more coherent and thus more enjoyable.
Sursum corda!
Best regards,
FFJean
Centenarius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Habemus ad Dominum is three to six centuries past game start
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
You should see my nitpicking about the unit models
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
2.2r
Komatai, Komatai toxotai - armor rating 3
Komatai Hippotoxotai - armor rating 2
None of those units has a single piece of armor.
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
The British retainer spearmen still have an undeserved armor rating of 3.
Question: What influences you do give some unarmored units an armor rating of 1, while others receive 0. Clothing present in the models?
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Thracian peltasts' armor rating of 5 is too high.
All the soldiers have a helmet, and 1 in 4 has a linothorax.
The Hellenic hemithorakitai have the same equipment, but an armor rating of 4.
Small inconsistency, but I found it odd that skirmishers have more armor rating than infantry while being equipped the same.
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Premise: Cappadocian cavalry is overpriced or undertuned for the price
Comparison: Aswar i Kapoddakiya / Raskumezenai / Kurepos
The cappadocians are the most expensive of these, but their performance or equipment isn't any better (lacking shields, 1 point more of armor). The cappadocians carry 2 longchai which do a lot less damage than all the volleys the Kurepos can put out, or the more powerful javelins used by the thracians - why are akon tipped javelins more damaging than a throwing spear? I expected throwing spears (longchai) to have more in common with solifera/pila, given the size of the spear. A javelin by definition is a small, lightweight spear, specialized to be thrown and to carry several of them. A thrusting spear is a lot heavier, and i think the impact of one should be greater than it is currently.
The description of the thracian podromoi implies they are undisciplined (famous for looting, whoring, drinking, etc.) yet their training/morale doesn't really reflect that. The cappadocians are noblemen but are impetuous (undisciplined), same with other persian cavalry like the medians or the kinsmen heavy cavalry. Why are the iranian noblemen undisciplined, while the hellenistic equivalent are not.
EBII Hod Carrier
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
The Kappodakiya have better horses, better armour, better thrown weapons, better defensive skill and better morale than both of those two units. They have significantly better missiles and morale than Kurepos.
They're undisciplined precisely because they're nobles - each man thinks himself the master of the situation, he's not a lackey following the orders of his betters.
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
The cappadocian horses don't seem significantly better, based on my testing: their speed and endurance are almost the same (all are hardy and recover at same rates), only thing i can think of maybe is the mass of the horse, but the mount sizes look very close too. This is based on testing these units on different situations, not looking at their stats on the files.
The cappadocians have armour value of 4, the kurepos 2 + 3 (shield), the raskumenezai 3 + 3 (shield). Cavalry has the mobility to avoid being attacked on the rear/flank, to fight on their terms, so having a shield vs 1/2 extra points of armor, greatly favours the shield. If you count how shield provide double the protection for missile attacks, the bane of any light cavalry, then it's simple to see why they're superior. Particularly when they are significantly cheaper to recruit.
I have done numerous test on this - the cappadocians ranged weapons are lackluster, they will cause around 5 casualties at most in a battle - their only usefulness is putting fire at will off and looking for a chance to shoot armored cavalry in the flank/back. Meanwhile, Kurepos can throw double the number of volleys at less damage, which in effect means doing way more than 5 casualties shooting from the back, i have got 30 or more. The Raskumenezai are also superior due to having more ammo and better quality, again the number of ammo makes a huge difference on how effective they are.
I concede your point on morale, even if the difference between raskumenezai-kappodakiya is 1 point only.
Aren't units like Hetairoi also noblemen, shouldn't they be impetuous instead of disciplined too? Or any other noblemen like carthaginian heavy cavalry. Why are eastern/iranian nobility less disciplined than others?
Last edited by Hellenikon; June 26, 2017 at 04:14 PM.
EBII Hod Carrier
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
The Kappodakiya have faster horses (only slightly, but it's still faster) with a lower stat_heat, meaning they tire slower than the others. That morale difference matters even more now, since they're all varying from a smaller base than they were.
Either way, it's to be expected that a formula might occasionally throw out edge cases where something is less efficient than another, but that isn't reason enough to make an exception. There are still situations where you won't have the option of choosing one of the three, or only one is available to you at the time.
I haven't actually touched the disciplined/impetuous aspect of their morale, so I assumed there was a reason for it.
EBII Hod Carrier
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
The Kappodakiya have faster horses (only slightly, but it's still faster) with a lower stat_heat, meaning they tire slower than the others. That morale difference matters even more now, since they're all varying from a smaller base than they were.
Either way, it's to be expected that a formula might occasionally throw out edge cases where something is less efficient than another, but that isn't reason enough to make an exception. They have better equipment and are of higher status - that means they're more expensive. There are still situations where you won't have the option of choosing one of the three, or only one is available to you at the time.
I haven't actually touched the disciplined/impetuous aspect of their morale, so I assumed there was a reason for it.
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Hi, so I have a question about similar units in similar regions that have very different costs.
Illyrian Thorakitai v Thracian Colonists
Same defensive stats, ap swords (7 and 8 attack respectively), similar morale, Thracian is noticeably cheaper. I know that y'all price units based on a number of factors, but even reading the descriptions for the two units nothing is really popping out as to why there's a pricing difference. It seems to me like both the Illyrians and Thracians are both similarly warlike people who adopted Hellenic armaments. Also, it seems like the other Illyrian units are much more aggressively priced for their effectiveness (their peltasts are arguably the best levy skirmisher unit in Europe, their thureophoroi and hoplites make for fantastic light infantry, and their light cavalry are some of my favorite non-HA cav).
I have similar complaints about Hyrcanian Hillmen and Tabargane Eranshar...
Not here to whine, I know that y'all put a ton of thought and detail into why you stat and price units in a certain way, and I've been really excited to see all the changes to the units since EB1 (like how Gaesatoi are no longer little incredible hulks).
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