Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

[QuintusSertorius]

Here is the first roster (Pritanoi) I finished checking/comparing. Tried to explain the changes I see fit the best I can..
Didn't touch the morale though, I'm not sure if I can reason that out other than comparing but that'd be fishy I think..

Really appreciate you doing this, it's always good to have another set of eyes on the units, especially if Ibrahim and I have missed something.

***Pritanoi Roster Offers


Seguorina

offer: defense skill from 3 to 6 (as already been discussed)

Komnetsamoi

offer: charge bonus from 17 to 5
shield armor from 4 to 3
melee attack from 2 to 3

Komnetsamoi should have the same charge value as Londo Epatoi. Their second weapon looks the very same as londo epatoi too , should have the same attack damage which is 3.
The biggest shield armor for cavalry is 4 like in theuros shield cavalry (Kurepos,Donno Eporedo etc) which is equal in stat to the big Pritanoi shield cavalry (Seguorina, Markakoi). Komnetsamoi clearly have a smaller version of Pritanoi big shield. Making this change will put their shield stat similar to Mezenai, Ridanz who have more or less similar shield.

I've just had a look at these two in-game (there weren't any post-completion screenshots in the concepting forum), and as far as I can see, both use the same overhand spears as secondary weapons as Celtic cavalry. I've queried that with Ibrahim, because I can't see why their secondary weapon is statted as a (short) lance.

Agree on the shields for the tribesmen, smaller than the other unit.

Magones

offer: defense skill from 2 to 6
shield armor from 4 to 2

They are good warriors, they are probably more skilled than Mezenai, Kantabrae Ekuoreda, Ridanz but then they also have a smaller shield so giving them a defense skill of 6 considering their higher skill (9 level) worse shield seems appropriate.
4 is the cavalry shield armor for the biggest, best shields like the shield of Seguorina or the theuros shield of Donno Eporedoi, 3 is for the shields of Mezenai, Aswiniai, Prasadhara Asvanika, Magones should be one less on par with Sakaya Ashwabara, Parasim Garamantim shield armor values.

That defensive skill of 2 is wrong, we don't even use that for cavalry, it's 3 or 6 for the most part.

Agree on the shield size.

Markakoi

offer: defense skill from 6 to 9

elite cavalry, should have elite heavy cavalry defense skill same as Donno Eporedoi

Donno Eporedoi have a 6 - only FM bodyguard cavalry, and a handful of elite exceptions have 9.

Gaisokrotiatoi

offer: shield armor from 3 to 4

they should have same value as similar shield units like Slaganz, Perkwunas

Agreed.

Eqoreda

offer: defense skill from 2 to 6

these are named nobles but then their training level and probably also the battle experience should not be on par with real elite cavalry like Donno or Markakoi so they should have a defense skill of 6 rather than 9. not 2 though..

Another mistake, they should have a defensive skill of 6.

Ambaktoi, Agrokunoi


offer: training level from untrained to highly_trained or trained

I don't know what training level exactly represents but these are the chosen folk, foot versions of seguorina but then maybe they are trained less because of class issues so they can be trained rather than highly trained

It represents "neatness" of their formations. The Pritanoi are more individualistic even than the Celts, so it makes sense for them not to have neatly serried ranks.

***Some independent offers I wanted in before I come to their spesific rosters:

Gargokladioi
offer: Gargokladioi charge bonus from 5 to 10
Gargokladioi defense skill from 6 to 9
idea: batoroi vs gargokladioi
these are east celtic swordsman and west celtic swordsman right? western one being a bit better equipped. other the armor difference their stats should be the same no?

They're not equivalent to Batoroi - that's why they're so much cheaper. The eastern equivalent to Batoroi are the Uextias. Talking of whom, they're costed wrong, they're higher status/training than Gargokladoi, even if they have no equipment.

Basternai Draugai

offer: shield armor from 0 to 5 or 6

0 is obviously a mistake but i'm not sure if their shields are as good as theuros shields hence 5 or 6

They don't have shields, I just checked them. Javelins and a two-handed weapon. Are you sure we're talking about the same unit?

Basternai Markaridai

offer: shield armor from 3 to 4

their shield seems big and enforced enough but I if it's of less quality then theuros I guess it should stay 3

If these changes are in overall sound, will move to another roster to continue

Agreed, those are big.

[Barnabas]

Haha glad to be of help.. I will post when I finish my next roster check.

I've used extensively the recruitment viewer doing this check assuming it displayed correct other than checking the second weapons of two aforementioned celtic cavalry. However, Basternai Draugai are depicted with a big theuros like shield.. I got surprised when you said they don't have shield.. Maybe the pic is something like a placeholder for the same unit leftover from a previous version?

Something is bothering me about Pritanoi. Do they experience the riders reform along the same dates as their cousin factions? If that's the case, I assume to make them exempt from because they don't get to recruit their heavy cavalry and chariots until their kingdom which for a standart non-blitzing play should be experienced so much later then the riders reform..

[QuintusSertorius]

Haha glad to be of help.. I will post when I finish my next roster check.

I've used extensively the recruitment viewer doing this check assuming it displayed correct other than checking the second weapons of two aforementioned celtic cavalry. However, Basternai Draugai are depicted with a big theuros like shield.. I got surprised when you said they don't have shield.. Maybe the pic is something like a placeholder for the same unit leftover from a previous version?.

Don't assume the info card (which is what the RV reads) is correct. I checked those units in-game to verify their equipment, the Basternai infantry are shieldless.

Something is bothering me about Pritanoi. Do they experience the riders reform along the same dates as their cousin factions? If that's the case, I assume to make them exempt from because they don't get to recruit their heavy cavalry and chariots until their kingdom which for a standart non-blitzing play should be experienced so much later then the riders reform..

They're not Celts, they don't get the Celtic reforms. So they'll retain chariots for the remainder of the game.

[Tanavar]

why the hellcats and the hetairoi got the same charge value ? 21
the hellcats are much more heavily armored and got a longer lance so it doesnt makes sense to me.
meanwhile the parthians and the armenians got a charge value of 30
even the Persian heavy cavalry and the Baktrian Medium Cavalry got a charge value of 28 even being less heavily armored than the Hellenic Cataphracts.

The hellenic cataphracts got also a worse moral than the hetairoi and less stamina , they have little more defence and little more attack but that's about it , also their secondary weapon attack value is worse , i think their charge value should be buffed a little , to 28 for exemple if you want them worse than their armenians and parthians counterparts.
i tested their charge on a unit of Pandotapoi and here the results (frontal charge):
Hellenic Cataphracts : Charge , kills some 20 pandotapoi , fights a little , 4 hellenic cataphracts dies and the pandotapoi routs.
Armenian and Parthians : Charge , Pandotapoi instantly rout , no casulaties for the cataphracts
Baktrian / Persian heavy cavalry : loses 2 men then the pandotapoi routs
the Hetairoi doctrine isint meant for frontal charges but i tried anyways : they lose like 8 men and the pandotapoi routs.

any feedback on this ?

[Thuycidides]

why the hellcats and the hetairoi got the same charge value ? 21
the hellcats are much more heavily armored and got a longer lance so it doesnt makes sense to me.
meanwhile the parthians and the armenians got a charge value of 30
even the Persian heavy cavalry and the Baktrian Medium Cavalry got a charge value of 28 even being less heavily armored than the Hellenic Cataphracts.

...the Hetairoi doctrine isint meant for frontal charges but i tried anyways : they lose like 8 men and the pandotapoi routs.

The cavalry charges are probably too high globally. The AI detects this and always goes for the frontal charge with its cavalry, usually with good effect. You can charge a unit of hoplites in guard mode, or any similar spear unit head-on, and the spearmen will take lots of casualties.

It's kind of like vanilla M2TW, where you just charge, withdraw, and charge again with cavalry until the spear infantry rout.

[QuintusSertorius]

The cavalry charges are probably too high globally. The AI detects this and always goes for the frontal charge with its cavalry, usually with good effect. You can charge a unit of hoplites in guard mode, or any similar spear unit head-on, and the spearmen will take lots of casualties.

It's kind of like vanilla M2TW, where you just charge, withdraw, and charge again with cavalry until the spear infantry rout.

As I understand it, in vanilla knights charge once and rout all before them. We're talking about the very heaviest cavalry available in the game here, and even they can't rout formed-up heavy infantry without multiple charges to the rear.

[Thuycidides]

As I understand it, in vanilla knights charge once and rout all before them. We're talking about the very heaviest cavalry available in the game here, and even they can't rout formed-up heavy infantry without multiple charges to the rear.

The point is that it causes the AI to use stupid tactics. Whatever algorithm it's following gives the result that it's a good idea to charge spearmen head-on with cavalry.

[Jervaj]

Its normal that Heitaroi have the best stamina of all those. As they arent carring such a full cover armor and barding. They should be better for more mobility and repeated charges.

Cataphracts are about armor and one big charge really. I dont know why hellenic ones dont have notably higher charge values either. Even if they werent the best among their type they were still cataphracts, very well equipped and given their scarcity you would guess the ones you get are the talented and well trained ones.
Always shocked me a bit also their lower morale. I guess they might not be like the heitraoi that is like the elite troupe that makes the king's guard. But still seems weird for such a expensive unit to have meh morale.

[Tanavar]

my point exactly , also the historical records of their performance isin't awfull : at Panon , they routed the ptolies cavalry with easy then crashed into their rear winning the battle , at Magnesia , the Agema (under Antiochos the great they were trained and equiped like cataphracts ) and the others 3000 Cataphracts routed an entire legion and their allies with one charge , Antiochos could have won the battle but he chased like a retard again like raphia ...
the point is , they should have a higher charge value ...

[QuintusSertorius]

Hetairoi are elite, the best cavalrymen available to a Hellenistic faction, that's why their morale is higher than the Kataphraktoi (and swordsmanship is better). Their stamina is higher for a very simple reason - they have less armour.

I'll have a look at the charge value, they have long lances like the other cataphracts. However, effectiveness of charge is also, because of the engine, impacted by movement speed. So Hetairoi, being faster, may sometimes pull off more effective charges even with lower charge values.

The Kataphraktoi are not Agema (meaning elites again), so they're not comparable to Antiochos' Agema at Magnesia.

[Tanavar]

Thank you for taking my post into account , i only want a correct charge value for them , the swordsmanship , the moral and the stamina are correct and logical to me

[Rad]

Thank you everyone, for keeping this thread alive and making improvements in the game.
Can't play and test right now, too busy with rl.

[Tactics Mayers]

Why do the Iranian Sparmen and the Armenian Spearmen have such high shield values? A bunch of levy units having shields that match the Cohors Reformata's shields?

[QuintusSertorius]

Why do the Iranian Sparmen and the Armenian Spearmen have such high shield values? A bunch of levy units having shields that match the Cohors Reformata's shields?

Because they have huge shields. Though given the review of thureos/aspis recently to take into account thickness as well as coverage, they may need looking at again.

[Tactics Mayers]

Because they have huge shields. Though given the review of thureos/aspis recently to take into account thickness as well as coverage, they may need looking at again.

How effective are the wicker shields in melee? I know how they are arrow resistant and maybe be able to resist blunt weapons but how effective are they against spears and swords?

[Sarkiss]

How effective are the wicker shields in melee? I know how they are arrow resistant and maybe be able to resist blunt weapons but how effective are they against spears and swords?

i assume a few strikes would be enough to destroy one. this was actually one of the reasons that suggestion was made to reclassify the Armenian spearmen from "medium trained regulars" to "light irregulars". on the basis of the evidence we have, the gap could then be filled by introducing a medium-heavy aspis carrying regular spearmen that would also wear iron and bronze helmets.

[Soar]

After seeing the Bastarnai Draugai, depicted with a shield on their unit card with a zero for shield defense value, I went into a custom battle to check whether it was the picture or the stats that were in error. The answer is that their in-game models do not carry shields, but I decided to test their speed compared to other units while at it. The results were different from what you'd expect.



I placed all the units in a line at the frontmost edge of the deploy zone, facing towards the rear of the deployment zone, with gaps between the units so they wouldn't get tangled with each other while running. I then started the battle, selected all of them and gave them the order to run to a position near the rear edge of the map. I took the above screenshot once the first unit reached the target position.

Going from top to bottom, the Akontistai were the first unit to reach the finish, as you might expect. After that, strangely, the Hoplitai are in the lead, with the lightly-equipped Doryphoroi Pontikoi only a sliver behind them.

The Bastarnai Draugai are lagging significantly behind the three frontrunners, which seems like an error - they carry no shields or armor, merely javelins and a falx or some similar weapon, and are described on their unit card as "some of the fastest warriors among the Bastarnai", "trained since their youth to keep up with horses, even at full speed". Given their equipment and description, they should probably have skirmisher-like speed rather than lagging behind heavy infantry.

The Peltastai Logades and the Thureophoroi are bringing up the rear. It seems strange that they are so much slower compared to hoplites. The Peltastai Logades carry a level of armor similar to the Hoplitai, but a much smaller shield, and the duties they are described as being suitable for include screening, skirmishing, flanking and rapid marches, which seems inconsistent with their slow movement speed. The Thureophoroi carry a lighter panoply compared to the Hoplitai, and are described as benefiting from a greater degree of flexibility on the battlefield in comparison; I don't see why their speed shouldn't at least equal that of the Hoplitai.

[QuintusSertorius]

That observation seems to completely ignore the actual speed of the units in the EDU; did they start their run by faffing around with their javelins first?

[Soar]

After running the experiment several more times, I did not notice any funny business with javelins. The results were consistent between tests, other than the Doryphoroi possibly having a tendency to gain a sliver of a lead compared to the Hoplitai rather than the other way around.

Although all units started moving at the same time, it did seem kind of like the speed advantage of the Hoplitai/Doryphoroi might have more to do with initial acceleration rather than maximum speed, with the other units eventually catching up in terms of acceleration so they could maintain their relative position, but they still weren't gaining on the Hoplitai to any noticeable extent.

[Rad]

New patients

Late Libyan Spearmen vs (unupgraded) Lybian Swordsmen.
Same type of armor, same helmets, yet the Spearmen have an armor rating of 5, while the Swordsmen have an armor rating of 6. A +1 boost for the spearmen should do.