Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

[Jervaj]

Hi Rad. Do you think that phalanxes generaly are bit underpowered? I am aware of hammer and anvil tactics, and other supporting things. But i think they are bit too much underpowered. I did a lot of testing, im not saying this just like that. Still, i would like to hear your opinion. Others are also welcome to comment it.

Its actually some kind of "Bug" you could say. They arent working properlly as they were before. We hope it will be fixed for 2.2b and they will recover their frontal power

[Rad]

Hi Rad. Do you think that phalanxes generaly are bit underpowered? I am aware of hammer and anvil tactics, and other supporting things. But i think they are bit too much underpowered. I did a lot of testing, im not saying this just like that. Still, i would like to hear your opinion. Others are also welcome to comment it.

I've tested them on 2.2b VH BAI (regular phalangites vs polybian principes), I am satisfied with the results. Yes, they lack lethality, but damn, they can hold the line!
That's exactly what I want from them. To pin the enemy in place, while a cavalry unit goes for the kill.
They did suffer a lot from the pila voleys, but then again, who doesn't?

[Rad]

I think I read somewhere that they will be changed somewhat in 2.2b. Waiting for it, then I'll test it again and let you know.

Honestly, you can do well with the Deuteroi, Illyrian or any other levy pikemen. They just need to hold the door, err, I mean line, for long enough for your flanking units to do their magic.

[achilles-91]

Didnt knew that they will be changed for 2.2b . Thanks for info. Hodor

[Rad]

Now that you've mentioned it, I gotta say that one of my personal favorites is to set loose pikemen on light troops in a city square. They have nowhere to run muahahahahahaha!

[Rad]

I was going to say something about not linking this thread to Radical Islam until I saw the picture hahahahaha xD

[Barnabas]

I think this is the correct place for this:

Komatai are trained vvhen I check it from the recruitment vievver, Komatai Epilektoi are untrained. Is this done on purpose to overcome some game mechanism? Does the training level affect the morale?

[QuintusSertorius]

I think this is the correct place for this:

Komatai are trained vvhen I check it from the recruitment vievver, Komatai Epilektoi are untrained. Is this done on purpose to overcome some game mechanism? Does the training level affect the morale?

Even though it's listed under stat_mental, it's nothing to do with morale. It's about how "neat" their formation is. Untrained units are looser and more ragged in how they're distributed, trained and highly_trained are more orderly.

[Barnabas]

Then why are the Elite Dacian Skirmishers less orderly than Dacian Skirmishers? They have better armour and morale so shouldn't they fight more orderly so that they can fight melee longer?

[QuintusSertorius]

Then why are the Elite Dacian Skirmishers less orderly than Dacian Skirmishers? They have better armour and morale so shouldn't they fight more orderly so that they can fight melee longer?

Looks like their stats are the wrong way around, reading their respective descriptions.

[Barnabas]

Just noticed Seguorina has a defense skill of 3, can it be marked for change in the upcoming release if this isn't intended Quintus?

[QuintusSertorius]

Just noticed Seguorina has a defense skill of 3, can it be marked for change in the upcoming release if this isn't intended Quintus?

Ooops, that should be 6. They've got the same defensive stats as Komnetsamoi, which isn't right.

[Dooz]

Ooops, that should be 6. They've got the same defensive stats as Komnetsamoi, which isn't right.

If I were to want to correct that before starting a campaign, where would I find the files and what would I need to do? (currently looking through recruitment viewer to find a unit with the name, not familiar off the top of my head [edit: ah, google points to eb wiki points to pritanoi])

[QuintusSertorius]

While we are on stats, I have a lot of time these days, would gladly do the boring check stat work faction by faction if it can be of help.. You just need to explain me how the stats work. I guess I can't check the equipment based stats but can do the rest if they can be checked from the recruitment viewer..

Consistency is one of the primary aims of statting, it's essentially what I've been doing on them with Ibrahim since 2.01. The general rule is that stats should be roughly equivalent with other units of a similar role and status. So if they're using the same weapon, their attack should be the same as another unit of similar role/status using the same. Often it's better to find a comparable unit in another faction's roster - the aim is that equivalent units should be mostly similar, though mental stats are culture-based.

Defensive skill for non-aspis-wielding infantry is 3 for levies/untrained, 6 for militia/semi-professional, 9 for professionals/veterans and 12 for elites. An exception is for swordsmen, who are assumed to need a more active style than spearmen, so they're usually a 9, unless they have a really big shield. For aspis-wielding infantry it's 3 for levies, 4-5 for militia/semi-professionals and 6 for professionals, with 12 for elites.

For cavalry it's 3 for militia, 6 for horse-people/professionals and 9 for bodyguards/elites.

Shields have changed for infantry recently, though it ranges from 1-4 for cavalry, and 2-9 for infantry, mostly due to size, with infantry getting doubled/more varied value compared to cavalry. This is because cavalry shields don't protect the horse, so there's always a vulnerable element compared to infantry. The recent changes is that that a full-sized aspis is now a 7 and the thureos is a 6 - they were the other way around. Reason for the change is that while the coverage of the latter is slightly more efficient (usually 1m high and 0.5m wide - covering a big chunk of the body) they're usually quite light and thin compared to the aspis (which is usually 0.7m to 0.85m in diameter).

If I were to want to correct that before starting a campaign, where would I find the files and what would I need to do? (currently looking through recruitment viewer to find a unit with the name, not familiar off the top of my head)

Download Notepad++ (do not edit the files with Windows Notepad).

Search the export_descr_units.txt for Seguorina. Find the stat_pri_armour line. Change 1, 3, 4 to 1, 6, 4.

Delete your map.rwm and start a new campaign for it to take effect.

[Saithem]

For aspis-wielding infantry it's 3 for levies, 4-5 for militia/semi-professionals and 6 for professionals, with 12 for elites.

Are you sure it's not 9 for the aspis-wielding elites. At least that's the defensive skill of the Spartiatai Hoplitai, Epilektoi Hoplitai or Hypaspistai for example.

[Barnabas]

While we are on stats, I have a lot of time these days, would gladly do the boring check stat work faction by faction if it can be of help.. You just need to explain me how the stats work. I guess I can't check the equipment based stats but can do the rest if they can be checked from the recruitment viewer..

[Dooz]

Thank you, sir!

[Barnabas]

Is there any formula for charge bonus check/comparison?

[QuintusSertorius]

Is there any formula for charge bonus check/comparison?

It varies quite a bit; there are more exceptions here. For cavalry lances it's either 10/21 or 10/28 for two-handed ones, depending on length. One-handed lances are usually 4/17 or 6/15 depending on how handy they are up close. Overhand spears are 8/11, underhand vary a bit depending on the unit. Swords are 10/5 for longswords and 9/5 for others, 7/4 (and ap) for choppers - though elites have higher numbers due to skill.

For infantry generally charge value is half the attack value - though Celt semi-professionals and up (not Pritanoi) have doubled charge values.

Again, check equivalent units in other rosters.

[Barnabas]

Here is the first roster (Pritanoi) I finished checking/comparing. Tried to explain the changes I see fit the best I can..
Didn't touch the morale though, I'm not sure if I can reason that out other than comparing but that'd be fishy I think..

***Pritanoi Roster Offers


Seguorina

offer: defense skill from 3 to 6 (as already been discussed)

Komnetsamoi

offer: charge bonus from 17 to 5
shield armor from 4 to 3
melee attack from 2 to 3

Komnetsamoi should have the same charge value as Londo Epatoi. Their second weapon looks the very same as londo epatoi too , should have the same attack damage which is 3.
The biggest shield armor for cavalry is 4 like in theuros shield cavalry (Kurepos,Donno Eporedo etc) which is equal in stat to the big Pritanoi shield cavalry (Seguorina, Markakoi). Komnetsamoi clearly have a smaller version of Pritanoi big shield. Making this change will put their shield stat similar to Mezenai, Ridanz who have more or less similar shield.


Magones

offer: defense skill from 2 to 6
shield armor from 4 to 2

They are good warriors, they are probably more skilled than Mezenai, Kantabrae Ekuoreda, Ridanz but then they also have a smaller shield so giving them a defense skill of 6 considering their higher skill (9 level) worse shield seems appropriate.
4 is the cavalry shield armor for the biggest, best shields like the shield of Seguorina or the theuros shield of Donno Eporedoi, 3 is for the shields of Mezenai, Aswiniai, Prasadhara Asvanika, Magones should be one less on par with Sakaya Ashwabara, Parasim Garamantim shield armor values.


Markakoi

offer: defense skill from 6 to 9

elite cavalry, should have elite heavy cavalry defense skill same as Donno Eporedoi


Gaisokrotiatoi

offer: shield armor from 3 to 4

they should have same value as similar shield units like Slaganz, Perkwunas


Eqoreda

offer: defense skill from 2 to 6

these are named nobles but then their training level and probably also the battle experience should not be on par with real elite cavalry like Donno or Markakoi so they should have a defense skill of 6 rather than 9. not 2 though..


Ambaktoi, Agrokunoi


offer: training level from untrained to highly_trained or trained

I don't know what training level exactly represents but these are the chosen folk, foot versions of seguorina but then maybe they are trained less because of class issues so they can be trained rather than highly trained


***Some independent offers I wanted in before I come to their spesific rosters:

Gargokladioi
offer: Gargokladioi charge bonus from 5 to 10
Gargokladioi defense skill from 6 to 9
idea: batoroi vs gargokladioi
these are east celtic swordsman and west celtic swordsman right? western one being a bit better equipped. other the armor difference their stats should be the same no?


Basternai Draugai

offer: shield armor from 0 to 5 or 6

0 is obviously a mistake but i'm not sure if their shields are as good as theuros shields hence 5 or 6


Basternai Markaridai

offer: shield armor from 3 to 4

their shield seems big and enforced enough but I if it's of less quality then theuros I guess it should stay 3

If these changes are in overall sound, will move to another roster to continue