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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #501

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Perhaps in the files they have the same speed values. However I tested this extensively on custom battles in a grass plain, and these 2 units outrun most light cavalry. I make them run the whole map paralel to the enemy, and that way you can sort of have races, see which one comes ahead after crossing the whole map.

    Screenshot of the units
    https://prnt.sc/1at4zua
    Last edited by Hellenikon; July 13, 2021 at 09:03 AM.

  2. #502

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    Perhaps in the files they have the same speed values. However I tested this extensively on custom battles in a grass plain, and these 2 units outrun most light cavalry. I make them run the whole map paralel to the enemy, and that way you can sort of have races, see which one comes ahead after crossing the whole map.
    Unless there's a hardcoded effect where the bigger horse models are faster by default than the pony models, I don't know what to tell you.

  3. #503

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Unless there's a hardcoded effect where the bigger horse models are faster by default than the pony models, I don't know what to tell you.
    WYSIWYG. Bigger horse covers more distance with each step.

  4. #504

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I'm curious, why do Thraikioi Mezenai have such low unit size? Thracians were historically fond of cavalry and even Zibutai, their nobles, have larger unit size.

  5. #505

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Thureopherontes Toxotai, Peltanai and Tura Drunabarata

    The unit mass for Thureopherontes Toxotai is currently 0.9, this should be increased to 0.95 or 1 (On par with Peltanai or the Peltanai may be dropped to 0.95 or 9 due to their looser formation by default) to better reflect their comparatively heavy equipment compared to their lighter nomadic counterparts (They had heavy armor for an archer unit (A fair few had chain mail/scale + tube and yoke) and were equipped with thureos shields). Tura Drunabarata currently have a mass of 0.8, this should be increased to at least 0.9 to reflect their heavier equipment compared to their lighter counterparts. For comparison, Eranag Payadag and Aryanag Payadag both have a mass of 0.95. Skaplinai also currently have a mass of 1.05.
    Last edited by realm56; July 15, 2021 at 07:29 AM.
    To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
    - Sun Tzu



  6. #506

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    I'm curious, why do Thraikioi Mezenai have such low unit size? Thracians were historically fond of cavalry and even Zibutai, their nobles, have larger unit size.
    They're a Hellenised/settler unit.

  7. #507

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    They're a Hellenised/settler unit.
    Makes them kinda useless IMO compared to Raskumezenai, who are ubiquitous in the same area.

  8. #508

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by realm56 View Post
    Thureopherontes Toxotai, Peltanai and Tura Drunabarata

    The unit mass for Thureopherontes Toxotai is currently 0.9, this should be increased to 0.95 or 1 (On par with Peltanai or the Peltanai may be dropped to 0.95 or 9 due to their looser formation by default) to better reflect their comparatively heavy equipment compared to their lighter nomadic counterparts (They had heavy armor for an archer unit (A fair few had chain mail/scale + tube and yoke) and were equipped with thureos shields). Tura Drunabarata currently have a mass of 0.8, this should be increased to at least 0.9 to reflect their heavier equipment compared to their lighter counterparts. For comparison, Eranag Payadag and Aryanag Payadag both have a mass of 0.95. Skaplinai also currently have a mass of 1.05.
    Hey, glad to see someone else wanting mass to be balanced! To add onto your point, a lot of "heavy light" troops should have their mass increased, especially ones with spear sidearms and in close formations. For example, the recently mass-buffed Eastern and Western Iranian Archer-Spearmen should have their mass further increased to 1.00, or dare I say 1.05. They have a formation denser than even most medium infantry, are armed with spears, and their descriptions imply that they could serve as the frontline infantry in the old Persian infantry battle formation - a single rank of dedicated spearmen on the front with a mass of archers right behind. To better represent the frontal thin line of spearmen, the Eastern/Western variants could be given a mass, attack, and defense skill increase.

    And as a pipe dream may I throw out the idea of a unit named "Reconstituted Immortals", available to Hayastan and Pahlava after their Imperial Reform governments? They're essentially an upgrade to the Western/Eastern Iranian Archer-Spearmen. Thureos shield, spear and bow loadout, decent armor and good training/morale, they represent a hypothetical revival of old Persian military traditions with a modern twist. Again, this is pure fantastical thinking on my part... but it would be pretty cool fanservice haha

  9. #509

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoebopp View Post
    And as a pipe dream may I throw out the idea of a unit named "Reconstituted Immortals", available to Hayastan and Pahlava after their Imperial Reform governments? They're essentially an upgrade to the Western/Eastern Iranian Archer-Spearmen. Thureos shield, spear and bow loadout, decent armor and good training/morale, they represent a hypothetical revival of old Persian military traditions with a modern twist. Again, this is pure fantastical thinking on my part... but it would be pretty cool fanservice haha
    ...dude, that is what Dranik Gund is. Available only to Hayastan.

  10. #510

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    ...dude, that is what Dranik Gund is. Available only to Hayastan.
    Fair enough, but I was thinking of something less elite but much more widespread. A weaker Dranik Gund recruitable almost everywhere in the former Achaemenid Empire

  11. #511

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The Parthian Thureophoroi are still to come, but I suspect they'll be javelin and spear, rather than bow and spear.

  12. #512

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The Parthian Thureophoroi are still to come, but I suspect they'll be javelin and spear, rather than bow and spear.
    Awesome! Glad to know that the existence of Parthian Thureophoroi in EBII's EDU is not a vestigial fragment from EBI's EDU, but rather a real planned unit. If you may, could you reveal if this unit is restricted to Pahlava, or rather a regional available to relevant factions?

  13. #513

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoebopp View Post
    Awesome! Glad to know that the existence of Parthian Thureophoroi in EBII's EDU is not a vestigial fragment from EBI's EDU, but rather a real planned unit. If you may, could you reveal if this unit is restricted to Pahlava, or rather a regional available to relevant factions?
    Regional most likely. Usually it's only elites that are faction restricted...and sometimes not even that (looks at Saka cataphracts available from eastern colony).

  14. #514

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoebopp View Post
    Awesome! Glad to know that the existence of Parthian Thureophoroi in EBII's EDU is not a vestigial fragment from EBI's EDU, but rather a real planned unit. If you may, could you reveal if this unit is restricted to Pahlava, or rather a regional available to relevant factions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Regional most likely. Usually it's only elites that are faction restricted...and sometimes not even that (looks at Saka cataphracts available from eastern colony).
    Regional and they look to be a later evolution of the Kardaka. Spearmen, big shields and helmets, no missiles at all.

  15. #515

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Looking at Illyrian Hoplites and Thureophoroi...why are Thureophoroi a bit more expensive, shouldn't it be the other way around? Gear is comparable and the hoplites are equal or a bit better in everything but heat fatigue...

  16. #516

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Asanan Riders have an armor of 2 despite roughly 3/5ths of the models having scale armor.

  17. #517

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoebopp View Post
    Asanan Riders have an armor of 2 despite roughly 3/5ths of the models having scale armor.
    Additionally, even though their swords are pretty long, they only have a melee attack of 3 and a charge bonus of 2. A change to 9 and 5 or 6 respectively would be more fitting.
    Last edited by realm56; July 19, 2021 at 01:14 AM.
    To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
    - Sun Tzu



  18. #518

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Aswar i Sakastan

    Their melee attack as of now is Armor piercing even though they essentially carry knives. The AP on their melee attack should be removed.
    To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
    - Sun Tzu



  19. #519

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Thureopherontes Hippotoxotai

    Their base sword attack has always been excellent at 12 which no other cavalry unit has compared to more specialized heavy cavalry with similar armaments such as Skuda Azdata and Eporeda Donnoi (Both have 11 sword attack) which was part of the reason why players mentioned that they could fight Hetairoi to a standstill. A decrease to 9 or 10 would do much to put them in their place.

    Egaretros

    For a Baltic cavalry unit, their unit size of 100 is very large. Perhaps a drop to 80 would be best (On par with Ridandiz and Epegaisoi) unless there is historical justification for the larger unit size.

    Thraikioi Mezenai

    Even for a settler (Hellenized) unit, their current unit size of 60 is very low, perhaps a modest rise to 70 would greatly improve their chances of survival (I am aware that this unit was comprised of Hellenized Thracians and there were not that many of them...).
    To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
    - Sun Tzu



  20. #520

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Alan Baragatæ, Khsai Baragatæ and Tura Aspabarata

    All three of these sword bearing horse archer units have charge values of 14 which are very high, surpassing some units better equipped for melee such as Igallidan (They have 10), Skuda Azdata (They have 11), allowing them to serve very well as impromptu shock cavalry as well as utterly demolish lighter units on the charge where comparable units may not do so with such ease, a decrease of that value to 10 or 11 would do much to bring them in line with the units mentioned previously. The Nadi Chara also have 14 charge but they have power charge and should remain unchanged (IIRC, the Sakan heavy cavalry that were not Cataphracts also had lances and the mixture of 14 charge with power charge attribute is supposed to represent this, with the lance absent from their unit models unlike the Fatagai Rasma).
    Last edited by realm56; August 18, 2021 at 06:41 AM.
    To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
    - Sun Tzu



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