Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm curious, why do Thraikioi Mezenai have such low unit size? Thracians were historically fond of cavalry and even Zibutai, their nobles, have larger unit size.

They're a Hellenised/settler unit.

[Sar1n]

They're a Hellenised/settler unit.

Makes them kinda useless IMO compared to Raskumezenai, who are ubiquitous in the same area.

[Domaje]

I'm curious, why do Thraikioi Mezenai have such low unit size? Thracians were historically fond of cavalry and even Zibutai, their nobles, have larger unit size.

They're a Hellenised/settler unit.

To add to Sar1n's questioning, the Thraikioi Mezenai lack the hardy attribute despite their description lauding their training and experience.

[realm56]

Thureopherontes Toxotai, Peltanai and Tura Drunabarata

The unit mass for Thureopherontes Toxotai is currently 0.9, this should be increased to 0.95 or 1 (On par with Peltanai or the Peltanai may be dropped to 0.95 or 9 due to their looser formation by default) to better reflect their comparatively heavy equipment compared to their lighter nomadic counterparts (They had heavy armor for an archer unit (A fair few had chain mail/scale + tube and yoke) and were equipped with thureos shields). Tura Drunabarata currently have a mass of 0.8, this should be increased to at least 0.9 to reflect their heavier equipment compared to their lighter counterparts. For comparison, Eranag Payadag and Aryanag Payadag both have a mass of 0.95. Skaplinai also currently have a mass of 1.05.

[Shoebopp]

Thureopherontes Toxotai, Peltanai and Tura Drunabarata

The unit mass for Thureopherontes Toxotai is currently 0.9, this should be increased to 0.95 or 1 (On par with Peltanai or the Peltanai may be dropped to 0.95 or 9 due to their looser formation by default) to better reflect their comparatively heavy equipment compared to their lighter nomadic counterparts (They had heavy armor for an archer unit (A fair few had chain mail/scale + tube and yoke) and were equipped with thureos shields). Tura Drunabarata currently have a mass of 0.8, this should be increased to at least 0.9 to reflect their heavier equipment compared to their lighter counterparts. For comparison, Eranag Payadag and Aryanag Payadag both have a mass of 0.95. Skaplinai also currently have a mass of 1.05.

Hey, glad to see someone else wanting mass to be balanced! To add onto your point, a lot of "heavy light" troops should have their mass increased, especially ones with spear sidearms and in close formations. For example, the recently mass-buffed Eastern and Western Iranian Archer-Spearmen should have their mass further increased to 1.00, or dare I say 1.05. They have a formation denser than even most medium infantry, are armed with spears, and their descriptions imply that they could serve as the frontline infantry in the old Persian infantry battle formation - a single rank of dedicated spearmen on the front with a mass of archers right behind. To better represent the frontal thin line of spearmen, the Eastern/Western variants could be given a mass, attack, and defense skill increase.

And as a pipe dream may I throw out the idea of a unit named "Reconstituted Immortals", available to Hayastan and Pahlava after their Imperial Reform governments? They're essentially an upgrade to the Western/Eastern Iranian Archer-Spearmen. Thureos shield, spear and bow loadout, decent armor and good training/morale, they represent a hypothetical revival of old Persian military traditions with a modern twist. Again, this is pure fantastical thinking on my part... but it would be pretty cool fanservice haha

[Sar1n]

And as a pipe dream may I throw out the idea of a unit named "Reconstituted Immortals", available to Hayastan and Pahlava after their Imperial Reform governments? They're essentially an upgrade to the Western/Eastern Iranian Archer-Spearmen. Thureos shield, spear and bow loadout, decent armor and good training/morale, they represent a hypothetical revival of old Persian military traditions with a modern twist. Again, this is pure fantastical thinking on my part... but it would be pretty cool fanservice haha

...dude, that is what Dranik Gund is. Available only to Hayastan.

[Shoebopp]

...dude, that is what Dranik Gund is. Available only to Hayastan.

Fair enough, but I was thinking of something less elite but much more widespread. A weaker Dranik Gund recruitable almost everywhere in the former Achaemenid Empire

[QuintusSertorius]

The Parthian Thureophoroi are still to come, but I suspect they'll be javelin and spear, rather than bow and spear.

[Shoebopp]

The Parthian Thureophoroi are still to come, but I suspect they'll be javelin and spear, rather than bow and spear.

Awesome! Glad to know that the existence of Parthian Thureophoroi in EBII's EDU is not a vestigial fragment from EBI's EDU, but rather a real planned unit. If you may, could you reveal if this unit is restricted to Pahlava, or rather a regional available to relevant factions?

[Sar1n]

Awesome! Glad to know that the existence of Parthian Thureophoroi in EBII's EDU is not a vestigial fragment from EBI's EDU, but rather a real planned unit. If you may, could you reveal if this unit is restricted to Pahlava, or rather a regional available to relevant factions?

Regional most likely. Usually it's only elites that are faction restricted...and sometimes not even that (looks at Saka cataphracts available from eastern colony).

[QuintusSertorius]

Awesome! Glad to know that the existence of Parthian Thureophoroi in EBII's EDU is not a vestigial fragment from EBI's EDU, but rather a real planned unit. If you may, could you reveal if this unit is restricted to Pahlava, or rather a regional available to relevant factions?

Regional most likely. Usually it's only elites that are faction restricted...and sometimes not even that (looks at Saka cataphracts available from eastern colony).

Regional and they look to be a later evolution of the Kardaka. Spearmen, big shields and helmets, no missiles at all.

[Sar1n]

Looking at Illyrian Hoplites and Thureophoroi...why are Thureophoroi a bit more expensive, shouldn't it be the other way around? Gear is comparable and the hoplites are equal or a bit better in everything but heat fatigue...

[Shoebopp]

Asanan Riders have an armor of 2 despite roughly 3/5ths of the models having scale armor.

[realm56]

Asanan Riders have an armor of 2 despite roughly 3/5ths of the models having scale armor.

Additionally, even though their swords are pretty long, they only have a melee attack of 3 and a charge bonus of 2. A change to 9 and 5 or 6 respectively would be more fitting.

[realm56]

Aswar i Sakastan

Their melee attack as of now is Armor piercing even though they essentially carry knives. The AP on their melee attack should be removed.

[realm56]

Thureopherontes Hippotoxotai

Their base sword attack has always been excellent at 12 which no other cavalry unit has compared to more specialized heavy cavalry with similar armaments such as Skuda Azdata and Eporeda Donnoi (Both have 11 sword attack) which was part of the reason why players mentioned that they could fight Hetairoi to a standstill. A decrease to 9 or 10 would do much to put them in their place.

Egaretros

For a Baltic cavalry unit, their unit size of 100 is very large. Perhaps a drop to 80 would be best (On par with Ridandiz and Epegaisoi) unless there is historical justification for the larger unit size.

Thraikioi Mezenai

Even for a settler (Hellenized) unit, their current unit size of 60 is very low, perhaps a modest rise to 70 would greatly improve their chances of survival (I am aware that this unit was comprised of Hellenized Thracians and there were not that many of them...).

[realm56]

Alan Baragatæ, Khsai Baragatæ and Tura Aspabarata

All three of these sword bearing horse archer units have charge values of 14 which are very high, surpassing some units better equipped for melee such as Igallidan (They have 10), Skuda Azdata (They have 11), allowing them to serve very well as impromptu shock cavalry as well as utterly demolish lighter units on the charge where comparable units may not do so with such ease, a decrease of that value to 10 or 11 would do much to bring them in line with the units mentioned previously. The Nadi Chara also have 14 charge but they have power charge and should remain unchanged (IIRC, the Sakan heavy cavalry that were not Cataphracts also had lances and the mixture of 14 charge with power charge attribute is supposed to represent this, with the lance absent from their unit models unlike the Fatagai Rasma).

[QuintusSertorius]

Alan Baragatæ, Khsai Baragatæ and Tura Aspabarata

All three of these sword bearing horse archer units have charge values of 14 which are very high, surpassing some units better equipped for melee such as Igallidan (They have 10), Skuda Azdata (They have 11), allowing them to serve very well as impromptu shock cavalry as well as utterly demolish lighter units on the charge where comparable units may not do so with such ease, a decrease of that value to 10 or 11 would do much to bring them in line with the units mentioned previously. The Nadi Chara also have 14 charge but they have power charge and should remain unchanged (IIRC, the Sakan heavy cavalry that were not Cataphracts also had lances and the mixture of 14 charge with power charge attribute is supposed to represent this, with the lance absent from their unit models unlike the Fatagai Rasma).

All three have "simulated lance" stats. We can't give them three weapons, so their charge value simulates the fact that they should have spears as well.

[Ganos Paran]

Hippeis Bosporitai

The unit description and stats of this unit don't seem to match, the description is of Bosphoran cataphracts or maybe proto-cataphracts, but the unit has lower defensive skill (and over all defense) than Bosphoran horse archers and loses to them in melee. Should the defensive skill be a few points higher to represent their elite/professional heavy cavalry status and put them in line with other heavy cavalry? Also, are these cavalrymen supposed to have such a low charge stat, it makes them not really work as cataphracts or heavy cavalry, did the Bosphorans not use lances?

Hippeis Baktrioi

Should they have an extra point of armor? They do have front barding on all or almost all units, in comparison Boii/Gallic noble cavalry has the same armor stat after their reforms with no horse barding at all (taking each reform level as plus one armor point, I know the system interprets it as +2 or +2.5, meaning Gallic cavalry end up with 9 armor putting them 1 point under a Parthian cataphract and three more than the Baktrians). Might also need an extra point of defensive skill if they're supposed to be nobles/elites (Thessalians hit 9, and these are supposed to be part native/nomadic).

German Club Infantry (Slahandiz) vs. Indian Macemen (Ksatriya Gadáhasta Yoddah)

The first unit is untrained, but has a charge value of 6, the second is trained, but has a charge value of 4, is this intended?

[realm56]

Hippeis Bosporitai

The unit description and stats of this unit don't seem to match, the description is of Bosphoran cataphracts or maybe proto-cataphracts, but the unit has lower defensive skill (and over all defense) than Bosphoran horse archers and loses to them in melee. Should the defensive skill be a few points higher to represent their elite/professional heavy cavalry status and put them in line with other heavy cavalry? Also, are these cavalrymen supposed to have such a low charge stat, it makes them not really work as cataphracts or heavy cavalry, did the Bosphorans not use lances?

Hippeis Baktrioi

Should they have an extra point of armor? They do have front barding on all or almost all units, in comparison Boii/Gallic noble cavalry has the same armor stat after their reforms with no horse barding at all (taking each reform level as plus one armor point, I know the system interprets it as +2 or +2.5, meaning Gallic cavalry end up with 9 armor putting them 1 point under a Parthian cataphract and three more than the Baktrians). Might also need an extra point of defensive skill if they're supposed to be nobles/elites (Thessalians hit 9, and these are supposed to be part native/nomadic).

German Club Infantry (Slahandiz) vs. Indian Macemen (Ksatriya Gadáhasta Yoddah)

The first unit is untrained, but has a charge value of 6, the second is trained, but has a charge value of 4, is this intended?

• The Hippeis Bosporitai mainly represent the late mounted citizen militias that sprang up during the later two centuries of the Bosphoran Kingdom after the Bosphoran Civil War (Justifying their defense skill of 6 and morale of 4) , they were well equipped and could devote time for training but lacked the elan of the nomadic riders in the wider Ponto Caspian Steppe. The proto-cataphracts are already represented in a way by the Skuda Azdata.

• The vast majority of the fully upgraded Eporeda Donnoi wore chainmail, which justifies their armor of 7 (or 9 or 9.5 if you stretch the in-game interpretation). But for the Hippeis Baktrioi, although most of their mounts have barding, a fair few of the men still wear tube and yoke along with scale and plate, which equates to an armor value of 6, compare that to Hetairoi where all their mounts have better barding and all the men wore muscle cuirasses (They have an armor value of 7). Additionally, the Hippeis Baktrioi were not elite units but were mustered cavalrymen made up of a mixture of Hellenistic Settlers and Hellenized portions of the native Bactrian and Sogdian aristocracies (Their skills and traditions were not homogenous), hence the defense skill of 8 as a reasonable middle ground (They were still fantastic cavalrymen all things considered).

• I agree with you on this one, the charge bonuses of the Ksatriya Gadáhasta Yoddah, Slahandiz and Perhunalos should be at least equalized to 6.