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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #401

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Out of curiosity, what's the justification for Saka nobles to be only archer units (BG and non-BG) with 8 ranged attack?

  2. #402
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Out of curiosity, what's the justification for Saka nobles to be only archer units (BG and non-BG) with 8 ranged attack?
    The bows they're using, which I don't think any other unit does.

  3. #403

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The bows they're using, which I don't think any other unit does.
    What kind of bow would that be?

  4. #404

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The Liby-Phoenician hoplites should not receive mail armor before the renewed panoply reform. There's no point in giving them mail before the Libyan swordsmen get theirs.

  5. #405

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    The Liby-Phoenician hoplites should not receive mail armor before the renewed panoply reform. There's no point in giving them mail before the Libyan swordsmen get theirs.
    Already pointed that out some weeks ago already known by the team. If I remember rightly it was a mistake and should be corrected in the next patch.

  6. #406

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Nice

  7. #407
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Units with chain mail are better than units without chain mail, except for Chatti veteran spearmen.

    Change my mind!

  8. #408

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Major report on Sweboz armor.

    One of our fellow forum members pointed out that some Sweboz units have an armor rating of 3 despite not wearing any armor. I reviewed the units and I will list the odd stuff bellow.

    1. Ridanz (early and late) - no armor on rider/horse - armor rating of 2. Western celtic cavalry has the same armor rating, despite having torso armor and leather/bronze helmets. Too high.

    2. Herunoudozez - Bodyguard infantry - 1 helmet, 2 suits of mail and 2 models wearing clothes, no leg protection - armor rating of 6. It's hard to find a unit to compare it to, but this feels a bit too high.

    3. Herunoudozez (Germanic Heavy Infantry) - initially 1 wooden helmet and one mail armor - armor rating of 4. Also hard to find a unit to compare it to, but feels a bit too high.

    4. Langabardo Halithoz (Lombard Warriors) - no armor - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    5. Dugunthiz Early and Late (Germanic Veteran Spearman) - no armor - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    6. Skathinawiskaniz Harjoz (Early Scandinavian Spearmen) - I think they have 1 wooden helmet, no body and leg protection - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    7. Basternai Draugai (Basternian Companions) - initially 1 leather scale armor, no head/leg protection - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    The armor rating for units 4, 5 and 6 should drop to 1 while the others should lose 1 point.

  9. #409

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Major report on Sweboz armor.

    One of our fellow forum members pointed out that some Sweboz units have an armor rating of 3 despite not wearing any armor. I reviewed the units and I will list the odd stuff bellow.

    1. Ridanz (early and late) - no armor on rider/horse - armor rating of 2. Western celtic cavalry has the same armor rating, despite having torso armor and leather/bronze helmets. Too high.

    2. Herunoudozez - Bodyguard infantry - 1 helmet, 2 suits of mail and 2 models wearing clothes, no leg protection - armor rating of 6. It's hard to find a unit to compare it to, but this feels a bit too high.

    3. Herunoudozez (Germanic Heavy Infantry) - initially 1 wooden helmet and one mail armor - armor rating of 4. Also hard to find a unit to compare it to, but feels a bit too high.

    4. Langabardo Halithoz (Lombard Warriors) - no armor - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    5. Dugunthiz Early and Late (Germanic Veteran Spearman) - no armor - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    6. Skathinawiskaniz Harjoz (Early Scandinavian Spearmen) - I think they have 1 wooden helmet, no body and leg protection - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    7. Basternai Draugai (Basternian Companions) - initially 1 leather scale armor, no head/leg protection - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    The armor rating for units 4, 5 and 6 should drop to 1 while the others should lose 1 point.
    Long ago in EB1, the justification for the Sweboz Veteran Spearmen and similar units for having a some armor value rather than only 1 is that they are wearing somekind of armor under their clothing.

    Don't know if it it holds water today nor I remember what kind of armor that was told in the explanation (maybe chainmail?)

  10. #410

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Nah man, there's no hidden armor. Sweboz are poor sons of guns. Even their nobles barely have some armor at all.

  11. #411

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    Long ago in EB1, the justification for the Sweboz Veteran Spearmen and similar units for having a some armor value rather than only 1 is that they are wearing somekind of armor under their clothing.

    Don't know if it it holds water today nor I remember what kind of armor that was told in the explanation (maybe chainmail?)
    Pretty sure they meant that the armour within the same unit was heterogeneous for "barbarian" factions and in RTW, they had no way of visually depicting that - hence, the stats being an attempt at doing it justice.

  12. #412

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Ah yes, the mighty clone armies of RTW1

    Jokes aside, the Sweboz armor thing needs to be fixed, even if it means that they will be even worse than they currently are.

  13. #413

    Default Getai Armor ratings

    Some of the Getai units seem to have lower armor value than they should for their appearance. The Phylakes Daoi and Tarabostes both look as heavily armored as the early Eporeda Donnoi, but only an armor rating of 3 as opposed to 4. Also, this isn't necessarily a Getai unit, but the Uextias also seem to have a little less armor than they should. They have 1 despite most of the units having helmets like the Gaisatoi, which have 2.
    Last edited by Hirtius; May 02, 2019 at 09:49 AM.

  14. #414

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Speaking of Barbarian Units and their achilles heel towards armored infantry...

    Is it just me or Heavily Armored Infantry are too OP? It's very noticable as I've played factions with either too few truely heavy infantry (Barbarians) or almost no infantry at all (Nomadic).

    All the high atk power of the barbarians does squat when 3 of their men die for every 1 armored infantry they take down every second. You either hope you have cavalry to flank them, anti-armor units or the army leader dies and even then you are left with units of infantry utterly weakened by losses.

    It's why I dislike fighting Hoplite units so much. Even flaking them with two units of infantry is trying to crack a walnut. And cavalry takes a bit of damage whenever flanking them.

    I wonder if foot units can have a small nerf to their armor similar to what happened to the cavalry units.

    The armor in antiquity isn't medieval period levels of invinciblity after all.
    Last edited by Tactics Mayers; May 02, 2019 at 12:25 PM.

  15. #415

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Some other units that might need to be changed:
    Ksatriya Gadáhasta Yoddhr (Indian Macemen) might deserve an extra armor point or so. Many of them are fairly heavily armored, even if some are unarmored.

    Kauntikas (Indian Spearmen) probably should have some sort of buff to attack and defense or to numbers. The cost is dirt cheap, but the unit is has stats that only levy units with the largest unit size (240 on huge). The Kauntikas only have 200 on huge. They are only 2/3 the upkeep cost of Uassoi, which with their extra 1 attack seems like a good deal, but it's the only indian spearmen there is. Any buffs should have costs and upkeep costs adjusted to reflect the change.

    Ambaktoi (British Retainers) have similar stats to Uisusparos kingetoi (Celtic spearmen), but have less men and cost (similar upkeep) just as much.

    Dorekim Lubiyim Meshurianim (Late Libyans) I think all have linothorax and helmets, but still have 5 armor. They should probably have one more.

    Tamaharatan (Sabean Elite Urban infantry) have almost the same stats to the khamiys (Sabean Royal Infantry) despite having fewer numbers, except that the Tamaharatan have fewer numbers and attack, which makes them worse. Both those and the Sabean bodyguard look they could use more armor points, and possibly more than just 1.

    Triarii should have numbers increased to other elites for gameplay purposes. In my opinion, their numbers are too few to effectively use. I usually bump them up to 120 on huge settings, as with most elites.

    Phćzćghashkha (North-Western Caucasian infantry) have a really high armor, a total of 8. I'm not sure if what they are wearing reflects that.

    Rad covered the Germanic units, but I think the heavy infantry should be left alone.

    The Illyrian phalanx unit should probably have a higher attack to make up for the much shorter spears.

    In my opinion, all the infantry bodyguards should have their numbers bumped up to 100 (on huge). On the campaign, this just bumps them up from around 60 to 80. Some people have suggested taking down the attack for some of them, which would make more sense with a larger unit.

  16. #416

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    This mod is one of the few mods around that portrays armor rightly. Armor saves lives. It's obvious on the individual level, it's even more obvious in large scale combat.
    Otherwise, people would not have bothered buying and wearing armor for thousands of years.

    I have no issue fighting armored units. It's the fast ranged units that annoy me - they're very, very effective for their cost.

  17. #417

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    Speaking of Barbarian Units and their achilles heel towards armored infantry...

    Is it just me or Heavily Armored Infantry are too OP? It's very noticable as I've played factions with either too few truely heavy infantry (Barbarians) or almost no infantry at all (Nomadic).

    All the high atk power of the barbarians does squat when 3 of their men die for every 1 armored infantry they take down every second. You either hope you have cavalry to flank them, anti-armor units or the army leader dies and even then you are left with units of infantry utterly weakened by losses.

    It's why I dislike fighting Hoplite units so much. Even flaking them with two units of infantry is trying to crack a walnut. And cavalry takes a bit of damage whenever flanking them.

    I wonder if foot units can have a small nerf to their armor similar to what happened to the cavalry units.

    The armor in antiquity isn't medieval period levels of invinciblity after all.
    I've never noticed anything wrong with it. Armor is important. And unless you are exclusively playing as the Pritanoi, Sweboz, or any of the nomads, the rest of the barbarians have a fair amount of decently or heavily armored infantry.

  18. #418
    ramsesii's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Is i me or are greek hippeis pretty strong.

    With their 8, 21 attack/charge they are leagues ahead of almost all medium'/ light cav in the world.
    The als have the double handed spear animation.
    That while the are described as barely good enough for their task.


    I expected Hippeis to be in comparable with Equites or Aswar i Kappodakiya, Anatolian Medium Cavalry(minus the javelins).


    It also makes Xystophoroi almost redundant, because their charge should be the selling point of Xystophoroi.
    I know Xystophoroi have POWER_CHARGE but does that do anything?

    Maybe this needs looked after.
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  19. #419
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsesii View Post
    Is i me or are greek hippeis pretty strong.

    With their 8, 21 attack/charge they are leagues ahead of almost all medium'/ light cav in the world.
    The als have the double handed spear animation.
    That while the are described as barely good enough for their task.


    I expected Hippeis to be in comparable with Equites or Aswar i Kappodakiya, Anatolian Medium Cavalry(minus the javelins).


    It also makes Xystophoroi almost redundant, because their charge should be the selling point of Xystophoroi.
    I know Xystophoroi have POWER_CHARGE but does that do anything?

    Maybe this needs looked after.
    You're talking about a single stat. Look at the rest of their stats. Never mind that the Xystophoroi's charge is better (10/21), and has power_charge which doubles the value of the charge when executed correctly.

  20. #420
    ramsesii's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Yes I know Xystophoroi has 10/21.
    For the other stats, I know I can read the EDU

    Still I wonder if 8/21 is intentional.
    It means Hippeis with their stats fall in the category of best alround cav.
    They have decent defence: 4 Arm 6 def
    Their melee is average.
    Their charge is above average.
    The morale is average.

    So again why wre Hippeis consdered as average to bad cav.

    The point Im trying to make is that iff Hippeis are so similar why bother with Xystophoroi.
    I mean from RL perspective. Iff Hippeis had a reasonable charge why then create a unit that does one thing marginaly better for the loss of other things, It makes no sense to me.
    Are they meant to have a kontos as mainweapon. and another overhand spear as secudary, feels and looks odd
    Last edited by ramsesii; May 10, 2019 at 05:45 AM.
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