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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #341
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The Retainers are veterans, that's why they have higher morale and the command attribute; status is another multiplier. You're comparing two completely different grades of unit.
    Yep, there're two different units. I have no qualms about morale boost (aka inspire) attribute. Perfectly right, they should be more expensive. But I just wanted to point out that the difference in the quality (morale boost, better armour, better morale much higher charge, and better javelins, with attack slightly inferior) doesn't seem to me to justify such a dramatic difference in costs. Especially that in the battle practice morale boost and the charge value don't matter so much at it seems on paper.

  2. #342

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The Retainers are veterans, that's why they have higher morale and the command attribute; status is another multiplier. You're comparing two completely different grades of unit.
    Yeah, about them being veterans, professionals etc... I find it odd that their attack rating is equal to the Hoplitai, who are a bunch of average joes. Any plans to adress that?

    By the way, do you happen to know who the hell gave the Pritanoi nobles a melee attack rating of 13? Freaking 13!

  3. #343
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Yep, there're two different units. I have no qualms about morale boost (aka inspire) attribute. Perfectly right, they should be more expensive. But I just wanted to point out that the difference in the quality (morale boost, better armour, better morale much higher charge, and better javelins, with attack slightly inferior) doesn't seem to me to justify such a dramatic difference in costs. Especially that in the battle practice morale boost and the charge value don't matter so much at it seems on paper.
    The morale boost make a huge difference when you're playing on Medium battle difficulty, and they carry on fighting when lower morale units have fled. Same goes their inspiring ability in making weaker units stick around.

  4. #344
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The morale boost make a huge difference when you're playing on Medium battle difficulty, and they carry on fighting when lower morale units have fled. Same goes their inspiring ability in making weaker units stick around.
    Ok, fair play, thanks for the answer. I stick to my opinion though.
    As I understand, by "Medium" difficulty you mean only the AI troops - as the difficulty level provides for bonuses for the AI (morale and stamina), but doesn't make player's troops inferior.
    Morale boost (coded "Inspire", these are the same thing) provides for such a boost - but I think it's only "+1" (or am I wrong?)

    I just want to explain the reasoning:
    - charge value - as I and Rad reported, this value has very little effect in the framework of the EBII fighting system - this is because it is added to the attack value for a much shorter part of the fight (in %%) than in vanilla or other mods, where killing is faster (I don't assess which system is better, it's just a mechanism),
    - morale - the EBII has very low moral values (some even 1, but on average 3-6, better troops 8, bodyguards/retainers 12). However, the player usually brings a good general who adds to that morale. In my Pritanoi campaign he was extremely good already at the age of 37: +6 Command, +6 Command when attacking, +6 TroopMorale (from various traits), +4 Confidence (although these two might be mixed up, as I've analysed it here). This was a whopping + 22 Morale, but this may rarely be available to the players. However, I'd assume that an average general adds between 5 and 10 to morale. In any case, this makes morale of all units more level than it's on paper (ie: not 1 - 3 - 8, but 11 - 13 - 18). The additional +1 boost from "inspiring ability" is then of lesser relevance - and it's why I claim it "doesn't matter in practice as so much as it seems on paper"
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; February 14, 2019 at 03:46 AM.

  5. #345

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    - charge value - as I and Rad reported, this value has very little effect in the framework of the EBII fighting system - this is because it is added to the attack value for a much shorter part of the fight (in %%) than in vanilla or other mods, where killing is faster (I don't assess which system is better, it's just a mechanism)
    I honestly didn't see the utility of infantry charges in any mod. Never understood why modders give units such low charge values that are practically irrelevant. I'll probably double them in my game and see what happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Yeah, about them being veterans, professionals etc... I find it odd that their attack rating is equal to the Hoplitai, who are a bunch of average joes. Any plans to adress that?

    By the way, do you happen to know who the hell gave the Pritanoi nobles a melee attack rating of 13? Freaking 13!
    Because the rest of the pritanoi roster is s...ubpar probably.
    Last edited by Aper; February 15, 2019 at 03:22 AM.

  6. #346

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aper View Post
    Because the rest of the pritanoi roster is s...ubpar probably.
    The one thing the EB2 team swore not to do is to use the good old rock-paper-scisscors RTS balancing.
    The attack rating of the Pritanoi nobles is unrealistically high, even compared to other elite swordsman units. It needs to be toned down.
    Last edited by Rad; February 15, 2019 at 05:16 AM.

  7. #347
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I have to do the following, even if it brands me as a fanboy and an enemy of the people:

    Spartan hoplites vs Pontic heavy hoplites
    ____________________________________

    1. Unit size is the same - I have nothing to say about that.

    2. Formation, discipline, attack and defense skill is equal. However, the Pontic heavy hoplites have one extra morale point and they have the Command trait - For folks like myself, folks who only have a general understanding of hellenistic armies, this strikes me as odd. Were the Pontikoi truly equally capable, but braver and more inspiring soldiers?

    3. The armor rating of the two units is equal - This is what I can clearly perceive as being incorrect.

    a. Both units are fully helmeted.
    b. The Spartans wear a mix of bronze and iron muscled cuirass/metal thorax/reinforced linothorax, while the Pontikoi wear a mix of scale and reinforced linothorax. Spartans have the advantage here.
    c. All Spartans wear greaves, while most Pontikoi wear greaves. Slight advantage for the Spartans here.

    4. Recruitment and upkeep are the same.
    Turns out the Spartans fell short of rounding up to 10 armour. So there won't be a change there.

  8. #348

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Seleucid/Baktrian cataphracts: The description implies improved protection but the EDU armour value remains 10 - in line with eg Parthian cataphracts. Is this intended?
    Lakedaimonian Hoplites: the EDU armour rating of 4 seems low - would they not have at least received greaves and a linothorax from the state even if they could not afford such basic protection themselves?
    Regards
    P.

  9. #349

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Porphyrogenita View Post
    Lakedaimonian Hoplites: the EDU armour rating of 4 seems low - would they not have at least received greaves and a linothorax from the state even if they could not afford such basic protection themselves?
    Regards
    P.
    Their current armor rating is in line with their visual appearance.
    I'd like to suggest that their defense skill be bumped to 8, though.

  10. #350

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I'd like to suggest that their defense skill be bumped to 8, though.
    I'm guessing that their lower defense skill is supposed to represent the fact that the hellenistic cataphracts weren't particularly good at being cataphracts--as opposed to the Sakan or Parthian ones.

  11. #351

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    I'm guessing that their lower defense skill is supposed to represent the fact that the hellenistic cataphracts weren't particularly good at being cataphracts--as opposed to the Sakan or Parthian ones.
    What? I was talking about the Lakedaimonian Hoplites.

  12. #352
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Their current armor rating is in line with their visual appearance.
    I'd like to suggest that their defense skill be bumped to 8, though.
    Hoplites have a lower defensive skill than other units equipped with different shields, to reflect the unwieldiness of the aspis. The Lakonikoi aren't professionals, which is why they are available in large numbers and have the stats they do.

  13. #353

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Hoplites have a lower defensive skill than other units equipped with different shields, to reflect the unwieldiness of the aspis. The Lakonikoi aren't professionals, which is why they are available in large numbers and have the stats they do.
    These men are the keepers of centuries old heroic military traditions. They do not rely on heavy equipment, because they are truly masters of war and actually cherish military engagements as a welcome rest from training. Although not all of them are Spartiatai, their prowess is without peers, in fact the very traditions that forged these Hoplitai often cause men to lose their social status. For such individuals and their descendants, the only redemption available is through military excellence. Thus all these men require are a shield, helmet, spear and short stabbing sword, for they know that it is cohesion that wins infantry engagements.

    Historically, Sparte had suffered hugely and plunged into a crisis by 369 BC: half of its territory had been stripped, the most important portion of the servile agricultural workforce was lost, together with a sizeable number of politically subject communities. Even worse the Spartiatai had contracted by more than eighty per cent, compared to the demographics of the 5th century BC. Aristoteles considered the battle of Leuktra the single blow, from which Sparte never recovered. Indeed he speaks of Oliganthropia, stating how Sparte had been destroyed through the dearth of civic military manpower. This situation was also exacerbated by the loss of further dependant communities, for these decided to side with Makedonia. Nevertheless Sparte still clung to its traditions and Hoplitai from Lakonike following their training were capable of breaking infantry lines comprising both Hellenes and Makedones at Megalopolis in 331 BC. However lacking numbers and facing twice as many opponents in the open, the Lakedaimonioi had to retreat, lest even more valuable men died. Also it did not help that Spartan law demanded the disfranchisement of Tresantes, that is tremblers, meaning those who fled from an engagement. Such was the price to pay to have some of the best fighters in the world. Indeed Spartan leaders and men kept on being sought after as mercenaries during the Hellenistic period. While on the field for their polis the Lakedaimonioi still displayed magnificent fighting spirit and high morale.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I might have gotten the wrong idea while reading the unit description.

  14. #354

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    What? I was talking about the Lakedaimonian Hoplites.

    Whoops

  15. #355

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    And in both cases I was talking about the armor value not the defence skill .

  16. #356

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Regarding why the Pritanoi Nobles and BG have a really high atk power, you could ask the same why the Germanic Bodyguard also have the same high atk power.

    I always asusmed the reason why they have such high attack pwr is due to the fact they are wilder than the other barbarian factions, not to mention their description mentions that they got their elite status from merit rather than being a noble or given elite statis from their leaders.

  17. #357

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post

    I always asusmed the reason why they have such high attack pwr is due to the fact they are wilder than the other barbarian factions, not to mention their description mentions that they got their elite status from merit rather than being a noble or given elite statis from their leaders.
    Sorry, I am not buying that. Wilder does not mean better fighter. There are plenty of elite, merit based units that have appropriate attack values. Pedites extraordinarii, the Iberian champion units, Aquitanii nobles etc, Hyperaspistai, Peltastai Makedones... The Pritanoi nobles do not come near those in mentioned skill or fame, yet they have a higher attack rating.

    Same goes for armor. I have reported cases where units have disproportionately high armor ratings (1 instead of 3 etc, 5 instead of 4) compared to their visual apperance. Read some of my previous posts here if you want.

    EDIT: Dear Lord, they gave the Germanic bodyguards 14 melee attack.
    Last edited by Rad; February 17, 2019 at 10:54 AM.

  18. #358
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Sorry, I am not buying that. Wilder does not mean better fighter. There are plenty of elite, merit based units that have appropriate attack values. Pedites extraordinarii, the Iberian champion units, Aquitanii nobles etc, Hyperaspistai, Peltastai Makedones... The Pritanoi nobles do not come near those in mentioned skill or fame, yet they have a higher attack rating.
    I do agree.
    IMO, where the "barbarian" elites should excel is the charging time of the fight. I think it'd confirm the historical reports. However, in the EBII battle system, one should do something with the time the "charge" bonus is applied, ie: making it last longer.

  19. #359

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    Regarding why the Pritanoi Nobles and BG have a really high atk power, you could ask the same why the Germanic Bodyguard also have the same high atk power.

    I always asusmed the reason why they have such high attack pwr is due to the fact they are wilder than the other barbarian factions, not to mention their description mentions that they got their elite status from merit rather than being a noble or given elite statis from their leaders.
    Its all to do with Brexit.....they are all pretty angry all the time

  20. #360

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I do agree.
    IMO, where the "barbarian" elites should excel is the charging time of the fight. I think it'd confirm the historical reports. However, in the EBII battle system, one should do something with the time the "charge" bonus is applied, ie: making it last longer.
    You know, as a strictly Barbaroi player (uhhh i'm a mother and my opinion is...), I think I disagree with you here. With the awkward battle mechanics it's damn near impossible to execute a perfect melee charge at a specific time. Walking the troops information, having them charge perfectly without the fumbling.. but when it does work, with their high charge stats, you can route a steady marian heavy armor maniple. I've sort of revisioned the awkward battle mechanics as a reflection on how difficult troop management in reality must be. Getting some Gaesatoi to do a disciplined charge at the side of a unit of Principes? Might never work perfectly, but when it does, that side of the battlefield will almost surely roll up and then you can almost surely get yourself a victory. I have been there, though, trying to walk a troop of high-impact Kelts around a line of enemies and yelling in frustration when they just awkwardly stumble toward the enemies' flank.

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