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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #281

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    I'm still in disbelief regarding the Bosporian Logades.

    Your telling me that the Bosporian Kingdom had access to the this many units that are on par with Roman Legions?

    Th3 same Bosporiam Kingdom who were unable to defeat the neighboring nomadic tribes and ended up a puppet kingdom of Mithradates VI?
    Everyone used them. Besides, heavy infantry isn't the best kind of unit to face horse archers and skirmishers.

    And do not overestimate Romans...individually, a legionnaire was still worse fighter than various elites, but they were fielded en masse compared to those and with comparable equipment, at level still way above current status of Logades.

  2. #282

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    However, from a gameplay standpoint, I don't expect that the best unit from this class would lose to a "copy" of that unit when I'm playing Koinon Hellenon, do you know what I mean? From what I've seen so far, it seems that the macedonian Hypaspistai have the best stats of an "hoplite class" unit. So it is kinda of disappointing to play a faction which the mainstay infantry is hoplites, and it doesn't even have access to the best unit in the game, considering that they have the longest military tradition in this type of warfare too.

  3. #283

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Also it's kinda weird that those 3 units cost the same (Epilektoi Hoplitai, Hypaspistai and Sacred Band)

  4. #284
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    And do not overestimate Romans...individually, a legionnaire was still worse fighter than various elites, but they were fielded en masse compared to those and with comparable equipment, at level still way above current status of Logades.
    That's right, adding to what you already said, there are a lot of examples of battles where the legionnaires faced the elite of other armies, and generally they would either loss badly or resist enough time for the rest of the army to destroy the other parts. What made them win was the reserve system, being capable of applying pressure in the gaps of the enemy army and better organization that allowed them to resist and secure parts of the line.

    For example, in the battle of Zama, the Romans could very well have lost the battle when they were facing Hannibal elite veterans but they won when the cavalry attacked from behind. The battles against the Ilgertae were won due to better organization and morale break of the other army, since the Ilgertae were on par of the romans in fighting skills but didn't had the organization the Romans had. There are many other examples...

  5. #285
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baktroi Strategos View Post
    Also it's kinda weird that those 3 units cost the same (Epilektoi Hoplitai, Hypaspistai and Sacred Band)
    They are elites, one may have 1 stat better than the other but they have the cost of an elite unit. What would you suggest?

  6. #286

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    They are elites, one may have 1 stat better than the other but they have the cost of an elite unit. What would you suggest?
    Yeah, I think you are right and they don't need to change costs, but i'm with that slight rebalance of the unit stats, maybe increase 1 attack to the greek one or increase the defense skill. Only a suggestion.

  7. #287
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    I'm still in disbelief regarding the Bosporian Logades.

    Your telling me that the Bosporian Kingdom had access to the this many units that are on par with Roman Legions?

    Th3 same Bosporiam Kingdom who were unable to defeat the neighboring nomadic tribes and ended up a puppet kingdom of Mithradates VI?
    Having good troops is only a boon if you have leadership to match. Have you read up anything about the Spartocid dynasty of the region? They rival the tyrants of Syracuse for dysfunctional, murderous, fratricidal corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baktroi Strategos View Post
    However, from a gameplay standpoint, I don't expect that the best unit from this class would lose to a "copy" of that unit when I'm playing Koinon Hellenon, do you know what I mean? From what I've seen so far, it seems that the macedonian Hypaspistai have the best stats of an "hoplite class" unit. So it is kinda of disappointing to play a faction which the mainstay infantry is hoplites, and it doesn't even have access to the best unit in the game, considering that they have the longest military tradition in this type of warfare too.
    The Epilektoi aren't the "best" available to KH, those are the general's bodyguards. They are merely the best that are left after the cream have been tithed for the general's bodyguard.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; December 29, 2018 at 05:22 PM.

  8. #288

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Only a question. Why does the Hetairoi cavalry now have such a low charge bonus of 21? I get it that Kataphract style cavalry put more weight in their charge, therefore they are more devastating. But the Baktroi Hippeis have a charge bonus of 28, and they are not Kataphract.

  9. #289
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baktroi Strategos View Post
    Only a question. Why does the Hetairoi cavalry now have such a low charge bonus of 21? I get it that Kataphract style cavalry put more weight in their charge, therefore they are more devastating. But the Baktroi Hippeis have a charge bonus of 28, and they are not Kataphract.
    21 is not low, and Baktrioi Hippeis are partially barded.

  10. #290

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    My guess is better horses and culture of riders. While Hetairoi would be Greek settlers, riding variety of local breeds, Baktroi Hippeis were often from settled steppe people, and riding some of heaviest breeds of the time-eastern steppe, Medean, perhaps some Niseans....

  11. #291

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    In the Hellenic Kataphract description it says that "While more heavily armored than the Hetairoi, they lack the fierceness and discipline of those warriors". How is that represented in the game? Considering that they were the warriors that conquered most of the east in that period.

  12. #292

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baktroi Strategos View Post
    In the Hellenic Kataphract description it says that "While more heavily armored than the Hetairoi, they lack the fierceness and discipline of those warriors". How is that represented in the game? Considering that they were the warriors that conquered most of the east in that period.
    They have less secondary melee attack, morale and defense skill, so they'll fall to Hetairoi in longer melee. And keep in mind that the hellenistic cataphracts in particular were not an elite corps, unlike their Parthian counterparts.

  13. #293

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Interesting. If not elite troops, what were the hellenistic cataphracts? The cost of outfitting and maintaining such troops must have beeen enormous compared to other troops.

  14. #294

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Interesting. If not elite troops, what were the hellenistic cataphracts? The cost of outfitting and maintaining such troops must have beeen enormous compared to other troops.
    AFAIK they were drawn from higher classes of various natives (Persians, Medeans, even supposedly Galatians) and some Greek settlers, and their equipment and training was partially paid for by state, but were not regarded as elite corps and had inferior status to Hetairoi.

  15. #295
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Indeed, they weren't, as was the case with the non-Hellenistic Cataphracts, the representatives of the most august and established nobility. They were merely the richest settlers.

  16. #296

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Nice to know, thanks.

  17. #297

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Good to know! I really hope to see iconic units like the Hetairoi Kataphractoi and the Parthian Grivpanar make a return soon! Keep up the good work!

  18. #298

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baktroi Strategos View Post
    Good to know! I really hope to see iconic units like the Hetairoi Kataphractoi and the Parthian Grivpanar make a return soon! Keep up the good work!
    There is a thread about these...

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...estions/page24

    H

  19. #299

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I don't understand why some cataphracts like the pahlavi ones frighten other mounted units, while others like the armenians only infantry. Is there a reason for this?

    I am also unsure what is the break point that decides a cavalry unit is heavy enough to give it the frighten infantry trait (others are near cataphract level and don't have it), which i think is very powerful. Couldn't cataphracts be balanced around their stats, without having to use that fear attribute?

    Also, shouldn't the scythed chariots frighten horses as well? I think the animals would be vulnerable to seeing each other legs being cut off and limping around, panicking and fleeing, like it happened to the seleucid cataphracts at magnesia. IMO it makes no sense to have it only affect infantry.

  20. #300
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    I don't understand why some cataphracts like the pahlavi ones frighten other mounted units, while others like the armenians only infantry. Is there a reason for this?

    I am also unsure what is the break point that decides a cavalry unit is heavy enough to give it the frighten infantry trait (others are near cataphract level and don't have it), which i think is very powerful. Couldn't cataphracts be balanced around their stats, without having to use that fear attribute?

    Also, shouldn't the scythed chariots frighten horses as well? I think the animals would be vulnerable to seeing each other legs being cut off and limping around, panicking and fleeing, like it happened to the seleucid cataphracts at magnesia. IMO it makes no sense to have it only affect infantry.
    Nisaean horses, which only the eastern ones have. They're bigger than anyone else's, though we don't have a separate model for them.

    Only cataphracts, elephants, scythed chariots and Gaesatae frighten infantry. Only cataphracts, elephants, camels and pikemen frighten cavalry - horses aren't bright enough to be scared by chariots.

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