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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #261
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Yes, they're elite, and yes they're supposed to be relatively plentiful. They were fielded in large numbers by the cities on the northern Pontic shore.

  2. #262
    jazstl's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Why then waste a unit on both macedonian and succesor variations? It seems it could be done with skin variaton like the hoplites?
    I for one am more in favor of giving one or the other some stat to make them different, maybe morale, inspire troops or scare troops?

  3. #263

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Is it possible to increase the defense skill of those Germanic Pikemen? They have measely 6 points, barely above the levy spearmen when their desription pegs them a disciplined warband.

    It would improve their performance if they could have the defense skill of the Germanic Veteran Spearmen instead of giving them a unhistorical phalanx formation.

    Also, the unit display of the Late Germanic Levy Spearmen is listed as missing.

  4. #264

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Yes, they're elite, and yes they're supposed to be relatively plentiful. They were fielded in large numbers by the cities on the northern Pontic shore.
    Any archeological evidences of these "large numbers" ?

  5. #265
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuchatel View Post
    Any archeological evidences of these "large numbers" ?
    Coin hordes, burials and epigraphy, as it says in the unit description.

  6. #266

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Coin hordes, burials and epigraphy, as it says in the unit description.
    Nobody is questioning the existence of such troops but their large numbers in EBII.
    A few burials dont translate in "large numbers".

  7. #267

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The Sauromatae units seem to need some attention stat-wise.

    I see that the stats (Melee-Missile-Defence-Charge) might be inconsistent with the descriptions.
    For example the Khsiraga have 8-7-10-11 and charge with spears but are described as bad in melee. Compare them to Aorsi, who have 8-7-11-11, same charge weapon but described as good all-round fighters for their class. Moreover, the Maryagatae who seem to be elites have stats of 6-0-14-15, armed with spears for charging. Is there a logic behind it or not?

  8. #268
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyklopeion Thauma View Post
    The Sauromatae units seem to need some attention stat-wise.

    I see that the stats (Melee-Missile-Defence-Charge) might be inconsistent with the descriptions.
    For example the Khsiraga have 8-7-10-11 and charge with spears but are described as bad in melee. Compare them to Aorsi, who have 8-7-11-11, same charge weapon but described as good all-round fighters for their class. Moreover, the Maryagatae who seem to be elites have stats of 6-0-14-15, armed with spears for charging. Is there a logic behind it or not?
    Firstly, what are you reading? Not the in-game unit card, I hope? It reports garbage, doesn't reflect the two weapons properly at all. You need to read the EDU entries to get the accurate picture of stats.

    You're mixing a whole bunch of different things, with different causes and components. Missile stats are based on their weapon, and is fixed. Melee is again based on the weapon, whether overhand or underhand, and one-handed or two-handed. Same again charge, two-handed weapons have a higher charge value.

    Defense is comprised of three parts; armour, defensive skill and shield. Armour and shield are fixed based on what they actually have, only defensive skill varies by unit status/origin.

  9. #269

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Small observation - all cavalry units that used to have swords as secondary weapons (armed with spears now) are shown with empty scabbards when in melee. Something to tweak, I guess.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  10. #270

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Firstly, what are you reading? Not the in-game unit card, I hope? It reports garbage, doesn't reflect the two weapons properly at all. You need to read the EDU entries to get the accurate picture of stats.

    You're mixing a whole bunch of different things, with different causes and components. Missile stats are based on their weapon, and is fixed. Melee is again based on the weapon, whether overhand or underhand, and one-handed or two-handed. Same again charge, two-handed weapons have a higher charge value.

    Defense is comprised of three parts; armour, defensive skill and shield. Armour and shield are fixed based on what they actually have, only defensive skill varies by unit status/origin.
    I was reading the unit description, not the unit attributes (sort of bullet points) at the top. I included missile, charge etc for completion. What I observed has to do with melee attack.
    According to the EDU:

    Siraces riders
    Code:
    stat_sec                8, 11, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr           no
    Aorsi riders
    Code:
    stat_sec                8, 11, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr           no
    Sarmatian retinue
    Code:
    stat_pri                6, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 0, 1
    stat_pri_attr           no
    stat_sec                8, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, blunt, axe, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr           ap
    All three use simple piercing spears, either as secondary or primary weapons. I suppose the retinue has lower attack due to the higher charge value.
    By contrast sword carrying riders such as Sarmatians vs Sai or Iwzag have different melee values that, seem to correspond, to the piercing vs slashing swords respectively.

  11. #271

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    How come that the Koinon Hellenon elite hoplites have worse stats than the Carthaginian Sacred Band Hoplites?

  12. #272

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    A few small things i noticed:

    - Illyrian phalanx and machimoi phalanx shield value is 4, should it not be 3?
    - Illyrian peltastai shield value is 4, should be 3?
    - Thorakitai epilektoi shield value is 6, should it be 5? (thureos)
    - Thorakitai epilektoi armor is 10 while hypapistai have armor 11, is that intended? I thought chainmail would afford at least equal level of armour.
    - Roxolani lancers have armour 4, but units like cappadocian cavalry/iranian cavalry had their armour reduced from 4 to 3, due to their models. The roxolani to me look less armored than the iranians.
    - Alan horse archers have armour 3, but they don't wear anything but everyday clothes. I think it should be 2, like the parthian and sarmatian horse archers.
    - Several italic units have nude warriors in them but have high armour vaues, like the hostatos mirikatas (6 versus 4 of the mistophoroi hoplitai)
    - Lucano-Brettian infantry have shield value 4, but they carry a small shield. intended?
    - Since the change to the agema kleroukhon (ptolematic elite settler cavalry), they lost 1 armour point and are the same as the thessalians, but more expensive. They are also extremely similar to the molossian cavalry. I think something could be done to differentiate these units: different mounts, cost, training or discipline, etc.
    - The epirus bodyhuard has an attack value of 13 for the main stat, is there any reason for it? I think Epirus suffer from having a weak bodyguard compared to say Macedon, and would benefit from having the bodyguard armour be raised to 6 (like the agema kleroukhon used to be), to represent that these are the picked molossians that can afford the best equipment.

  13. #273

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I can guess the gameplay reasons for which it was done, but i always get a mind itch on historical reasoning as to why Polybian Principes have attack of 10 while Cohors Reformata has 9 (of course, their good stamina compensating for that). Observing their textures, Principes having armour of 8 while Hastati being at 6 also seems bit inaccurate - they seem to have very similar armour overall (as historically they likely did), Hastati even having more chainmail individuals but Principes having linothorax (which counts for less than mail) and overall slightly more armour on them i think.

    Also, having added Praetoriana in my own game (not with any model i made) i was wondering if i should give them 6 or 9 defense skill... i gave them 6, but given the amount of units with 9 or 12, im thinking that was a mistake, even though i'm guessing defense skill tends to be higher if the unit has a smaller shield more suited to dueling combat.

    Offtopic but why does EBII have the whatever it's checking that it's data remains the same throughout the game that doesnt allow changes to even EDU to be save compatible? (I'm sure it's needed though, and mod is very stable.)
    Last edited by Stannis Baratheon; December 26, 2018 at 09:45 AM.

  14. #274

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Also, Caledonian units get armour of 0 because some of them are fully naked, correct? Kind of weird to have those pants count for much in terms of armour, but i guess the difference had to be represented

  15. #275
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baktroi Strategos View Post
    How come that the Koinon Hellenon elite hoplites have worse stats than the Carthaginian Sacred Band Hoplites?
    By "worse stats" I'm assuming you mean the single point of armour which marks the entirety of the difference between them? One had enough to round up, the other rounded down.

    Given the Sacred Band are much rarer and richer, I can live with that tiny difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    A few small things i noticed:

    - Illyrian phalanx and machimoi phalanx shield value is 4, should it not be 3?
    Theirs are on average slightly larger than those used by the Deuteroi, Pantopdapoi and Misthophoroi phalanxes, more like those used by the Phalangitai and Agema.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    - Illyrian peltastai shield value is 4, should be 3?
    Borderline, but given the number of smaller shields compared to the Hoplitai, probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    - Thorakitai epilektoi shield value is 6, should it be 5? (thureos)
    They have larger than normal thureoi (like the Galatian Retainers).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    - Thorakitai epilektoi armor is 10 while hypapistai have armor 11, is that intended? I thought chainmail would afford at least equal level of armour.
    More cuirasses amongst the Hypaspistai, which rounds up in the final workings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    - Roxolani lancers have armour 4, but units like cappadocian cavalry/iranian cavalry had their armour reduced from 4 to 3, due to their models. The roxolani to me look less armored than the iranians.
    There's some proper armour in the mix there, including scale, which nudges it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    - Alan horse archers have armour 3, but they don't wear anything but everyday clothes. I think it should be 2, like the parthian and sarmatian horse archers.
    Again, they have some armour mixed in, which justifies the 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    - Several italic units have nude warriors in them but have high armour vaues, like the hostatos mirikatas (6 versus 4 of the mistophoroi hoplitai)
    The nude ones probably bring the average down to a 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    - Lucano-Brettian infantry have shield value 4, but they carry a small shield. intended?
    Fair point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    - Since the change to the agema kleroukhon (ptolematic elite settler cavalry), they lost 1 armour point and are the same as the thessalians, but more expensive. They are also extremely similar to the molossian cavalry. I think something could be done to differentiate these units: different mounts, cost, training or discipline, etc.
    They're all essentially the same unit - elite lancers - but from different places.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    - The epirus bodyhuard has an attack value of 13 for the main stat, is there any reason for it? I think Epirus suffer from having a weak bodyguard compared to say Macedon, and would benefit from having the bodyguard armour be raised to 6 (like the agema kleroukhon used to be), to represent that these are the picked molossians that can afford the best equipment.
    They're better lancers, but with less armour and visibly so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis Baratheon View Post
    I can guess the gameplay reasons for which it was done, but i always get a mind itch on historical reasoning as to why Polybian Principes have attack of 10 while Cohors Reformata has 9 (of course, their good stamina compensating for that). Observing their textures, Principes having armour of 8 while Hastati being at 6 also seems bit inaccurate - they seem to have very similar armour overall (as historically they likely did), Hastati even having more chainmail individuals but Principes having linothorax (which counts for less than mail) and overall slightly more armour on them i think.

    Also, having added Praetoriana in my own game (not with any model i made) i was wondering if i should give them 6 or 9 defense skill... i gave them 6, but given the amount of units with 9 or 12, im thinking that was a mistake, even though i'm guessing defense skill tends to be higher if the unit has a smaller shield more suited to dueling combat.
    Polybian Principes are veterans, Cohors Reformata are not. The armour you can see varies quite a bit with units like that, from spawn to spawn. On average, the Principes have more armour.

    Professional units, unless carrying an aspis, have defensive skill 9. Elites have 12. Praetorians are elites and should have 12.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis Baratheon View Post
    Offtopic but why does EBII have the whatever it's checking that it's data remains the same throughout the game that doesnt allow changes to even EDU to be save compatible? (I'm sure it's needed though, and mod is very stable.)
    To stop people breaking things, it's the validation settings.

  16. #276

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Fool's hope, but that is not save compatible right? If it's the entry under hotseat section in .cfg... which kinda surprises me because changes to the file are usually save compatible.

  17. #277

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Hellenistic cataphracts have secondary attack 7 and Iranian Heavy Cavalry 10. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Cataphracts use kopis, like Hetairoi who have 10, and Iranians use mace, like other cataphracts who have 7.

  18. #278
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Hellenistic cataphracts have secondary attack 7 and Iranian Heavy Cavalry 10. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Cataphracts use kopis, like Hetairoi who have 10, and Iranians use mace, like other cataphracts who have 7.
    Iranian Heavies are nobles, the most august lineages and so on - they are equivalent to the Hetairoi. Kataphraktoi are not so rarified, they're a more regular professional unit.

  19. #279

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I'm still in disbelief regarding the Bosporian Logades.

    Your telling me that the Bosporian Kingdom had access to the this many units that are on par with Roman Legions?

    Th3 same Bosporiam Kingdom who were unable to defeat the neighboring nomadic tribes and ended up a puppet kingdom of Mithradates VI?

  20. #280

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    I'm still in disbelief regarding the Bosporian Logades.

    Your telling me that the Bosporian Kingdom had access to the this many units that are on par with Roman Legions?

    Th3 same Bosporiam Kingdom who were unable to defeat the neighboring nomadic tribes and ended up a puppet kingdom of Mithradates VI?

    They're mercenaries and not only the Bosporans used them, Pontus is one example and other example are the other greek cities in the black sea which were numerous.

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