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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #241
    ramsesii's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Well atleast the bug is identified and hopefully rectified in 2.35
    Well ill cfange it immediatly in my EDU.
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  2. #242

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    After this change, how do the makedones peltastai compare to the peltastai logades? Previously they were superior, now they have the same stats, except for one javelin less (so they carry less ammo).

    Should not the makedonians be superior? As in they are the original concept, and the other one is imitating their training and equipment to fulfill a similar role in non macedonian armies. Looking at the units it seems to me like the macedonians are better armored than the logades, maybe it could be justified to drop or increase one point in armour respectively, or tweaking their mental stats to difference them?

  3. #243

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I have question(s).

    What justifies the fact that the Ethiopian archers carry very large shields?
    For someone who is primarily a bowman (methinks), such a thing would be cumbersome to carry and they do not give me the feeling that they had assistants to carry shields in stead of them.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  4. #244
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    After this change, how do the makedones peltastai compare to the peltastai logades? Previously they were superior, now they have the same stats, except for one javelin less (so they carry less ammo).

    Should not the makedonians be superior? As in they are the original concept, and the other one is imitating their training and equipment to fulfill a similar role in non macedonian armies. Looking at the units it seems to me like the macedonians are better armored than the logades, maybe it could be justified to drop or increase one point in armour respectively, or tweaking their mental stats to difference them?
    They're equivalents; and have very similar equipment (the scale bands some of the Makedones have wouldn't constitute a whole point of difference), training and status. The Makedones might have been the original concept, but that was over a generation ago, more than long enough for the idea to have spread.

  5. #245

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    In my view, individual comparisons often miss the point. Much earlier on, when I was new to the TW series, I often made individual comparisons and match-up's between units as a sort of holy grail to determine their strength.

    Nowadays, however, despite the relative intrinstic validity of such spec comparisons, one must always remember individual comparisons are of limited value in actual gameplay conditions. Reason being this: in the battlefield, it's almost never a 1-to-1 match. Your pricey elites could get outflanked. A tired unit versus a fresh unit has significant disadvantages, and finally some well placed skirmishers could get repeated javelin hails or stones up your rear all the damn time, making it significantly harder and demoralizing to do things as usual.

    All in all, even the units with the strongest individual stats will be weak if used with the wrong tactics. And in a mass rout, they'll also tend to run pretty fast if your morale collapses.

    As per my infantry tactics thread, keeping reserves as Romani did me wonders when I was conquering Greece. I was able to disproportionately kill and destroy most KH elite hoplites as well as the Agema Makedonian Elite Phalanxes, all just by waiting to unleash my comparatively inferior principes and triarii head on until these elites were tired or exhausted.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; September 27, 2018 at 05:37 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  6. #246
    Genava's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    In my view, individual comparisons often miss the point. Much earlier on, when I was new to the TW series, I often made individual comparisons and match-up's between units as a sort of holy grail to determine their strength.

    Nowadays, however, despite the relative intrinstic validity of such spec comparisons, one must always remember individual comparisons are of limited value in actual gameplay conditions. Reason being this: in the battlefield, it's almost never a 1-to-1 match. Your pricey elites could get outflanked. A tired unit versus a fresh unit has significant disadvantages, and finally some well placed skirmishers could get repeated javelin hails or stones up your rear all the damn time, making it significantly harder and demoralizing to do things as usual.

    All in all, even the units with the strongest individual stats will be weak if used with the wrong tactics. And in a mass rout, they'll also tend to run pretty fast if your morale collapses.

    As per my infantry tactics thread, keeping reserves as Romani did me wonders when I was conquering Greece. I was able to disproportionately kill and destroy most KH elite hoplites as well as the Agema Makedonian Elite Phalanxes, all just by waiting to unleash my comparatively inferior principes and triarii head on until these elites were tired or exhausted.
    More generally, elites units aren't very useful in EBII. I use them only to protect specific cities overwhelmed by the enemy, they can stand their ground marvelously in the streets crushing wave after wave the levy units of my enemies. In the battlefield, I prefer to have a better ratio between quantity and quality. Elite units are not only expansive, they are too small to compete against huge formation. For the upkeep of 5 Argoi, I can have instead 4 Uisusparos Kingetoi, 3 Gargokladioi and 1 Batoroi.

    But the point of the comparing thread is also to see if there is illogical difference between units. It is particularly important with common medium units.
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  7. #247

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    More generally, elites units aren't very useful in EBII. I use them only to protect specific cities overwhelmed by the enemy, they can stand their ground marvelously in the streets crushing wave after wave the levy units of my enemies.
    Agreed. When they're up against average quality troops, their advantage isn't so great due to their lower numbers - 120 vs 160 or more. Elite (infanty) units only really seem to shine when they are holding ground against light/levy infantry, or against cavalry.

    I would suggest increasing elite units' size up to normal numbers - with a low recruitment pool and slow replenish rate, they are already a rare sight in the campaign.

    Increasing their stats further wouldn't be realistic - although they are better trained/motivated/armed/armored compared to the rest, they are not supermen.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  8. #248

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Yes, exactly. You both made great points.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; September 28, 2018 at 10:04 AM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  9. #249
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    If you want elites to have more importance on the the game without changing much use these sub-mod: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...native-Battles
    With this sub-mod you can really feel that elites are worth their valour, they have more endurance, can quickly destroy other units without suffering many casualties, along other things that have an impact on their behaviour

  10. #250

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Thanks for pointing it out, Lusitanio. I will read the description, but I'm not much for submods
    Btw, I'm not actually a fan of elites. I do have them in my armies, but I prefer recruiting cheaper, but still reliable units.
    Last edited by Rad; September 28, 2018 at 12:34 PM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  11. #251

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Elites are useful because they have, for lack of better words, more killingness and more not-getting-killedness per square metre than ordinary units. A line of battle will only ever be so wide (especially in sieges) - it's not always possible to have two units gang up on one. Often engagements won't be 1v1 but rather 5v5 or 6v6 or 12v12 or what-have-you.

    Surrounded and supported by cheaper units, elites make excellent assault and defense units - the tip of your spear or the boss of your shield, so to speak.

  12. #252

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Yup, they're better at siege defense, with tight alleys and all that other Thermopylae jazz.
    They still feel underwhelming in field battles, though.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  13. #253

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    @Quintus, thank you for commenting, it makes sense that they woul be very similar. Any word on these?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    The Skuda Aspabarata (scythian horse archers) are using a horse instead of a steppe pony, is this intended? I ask because the unit card picture shows a pony, and the stats (ex. very hardy) suggests they should be using one. They seem to be the only unit that uses a horse and has very good stamina.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    Hustatus Mirikatas (Remunerated Spearmen) have an armour value of 6, very high considering what the model look like (many are nude, garments only or italian chestpiece) - imo it should be lowered to 4 (similar to mistophoroi hoplitai) or 5 at most (same as sabellian).
    Last edited by Hellenikon; September 28, 2018 at 01:00 PM.

  14. #254

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    They still feel underwhelming in field battles, though.
    Well, in my experience the agema phalanx, which has a regular troop size of 120 on medium IIRC, is a REALLY tough unit. I've had really frustrating battles with them. Then there are units like the Boii Retainers and the Gallic retainers, who have a troop size of 80 and really give quite a stiff line defense on the field(with a good charge bonus + javelins to boot), they aretechnically professionals, but the amount of armor they wear basically means that they're in the elite class. Just pointing out that IMO there are exceptions.

    Another thing about elites that I find is, if you allow them to recover from a rout they will be VERY stubborn to rout and kill again, unless you have a proper advantage on them. This rule is one of the reasons why the agema phalanx can be so deadly IMO, especially against cavalry.

  15. #255

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    Well, in my experience the agema phalanx, which has a regular troop size of 120 on medium IIRC, is a REALLY tough unit. I've had really frustrating battles with them. Then there are units like the Boii Retainers and the Gallic retainers, who have a troop size of 80 and really give quite a stiff line defense on the field(with a good charge bonus + javelins to boot), they aretechnically professionals, but the amount of armor they wear basically means that they're in the elite class. Just pointing out that IMO there are exceptions.
    The agema phalanx is a very large unit (240 on huge unit settings) compared to others. They are not in the same category as the 120 man elite units. That being said, I haven't fought with or against them in order to say how good they are - I'm a western Mediterranean type of dude

    The Celtic retainer units aren't elite - they're professionals with normal unit size. Their armor does not change that. I'm glad you mentioned them, it's usually those types of units I am most pleased with. They have decent stats and numbers. The Argoi have better stats at the expense of being 3/4 of the size.
    Last edited by Rad; September 28, 2018 at 01:35 PM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  16. #256

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Seleucid cataphracts are shown to be carrying xiphos type swords in a baldric, yet their secondary weapons are kopis type swords.
    Is this intentional? Would they carry two sidearms?
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  17. #257
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Cataphracts would carry lots of weapons. In addition to the standard steppe panoply - bow, javelin(s), akinakes, they'd also have lance, sword(s) and possibly mace/axe. We just can't represent them within the confines of the engine.

  18. #258

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    So, Kopis in hand, Xiphos in scabbard - intentional?
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  19. #259
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brihentin13 View Post
    My sides are in orbit. I wish this site would let me rep you again. Quick, someone else say something awesome!
    I was going to rep you for this, but apparently I can't rep anyone else again for the next 24 hours, because TWC are a bunch of sticklers for strict rules and such. Kinda like radical Islam! And we all know how radical Rad is for starting this radical thread, my dude bro. I guess you could say Rad's thread is all about radical Islam, the most radical kind, where people push things to the edge, especially in skateboarding and cycling, but also in dieting, like a strict month of nothing but (Halal) kale and avocados. Freaking RADICAL!!! Totally gnarly.

    [Wailing guitar solo with totally awesome pinch harmonics heard in the background here.]


    That being said, I'll have to agree with Krampus a bit about the costs of Illyrian Thorakitai versus Thracian Colonists. Logically, given their similar training and equipment and stats, they should be around the same price. However, I guess perhaps the team took other factors into account like certain resources in Illyria versus elsewhere like Thrace were more expensive to acquire, perhaps? Did Illyria have a lot of native metal smithing and production of metal items or did they have to import a lot of this stuff, like tin for making bronze? I have no idea, to be honest, so it would be cool to hear from an expert who for some reason has nerdy autistic levels of knowledge about metallurgy in ancient Albania.

  20. #260

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Are the Bosporitai Logades supposed to be that elite? They are basically Thorakitai with swords but that can inspire other units to fight even longer.

    Even better, they have a shorter cooldown time when compared to the Epiletikoi Thorakitai and they have a maximum of three slots as opposed to most of the heavy infantry of the Bosporians only having 1 slot.

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