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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #521

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by realm56 View Post
    Alan Baragatæ, Khsai Baragatæ and Tura Aspabarata

    All three of these sword bearing horse archer units have charge values of 14 which are very high, surpassing some units better equipped for melee such as Igallidan (They have 10), Skuda Azdata (They have 11), allowing them to serve very well as impromptu shock cavalry as well as utterly demolish lighter units on the charge where comparable units may not do so with such ease, a decrease of that value to 10 or 11 would do much to bring them in line with the units mentioned previously. The Nadi Chara also have 14 charge but they have power charge and should remain unchanged (IIRC, the Sakan heavy cavalry that were not Cataphracts also had lances and the mixture of 14 charge with power charge attribute is supposed to represent this, with the lance absent from their unit models unlike the Fatagai Rasma).
    All three have "simulated lance" stats. We can't give them three weapons, so their charge value simulates the fact that they should have spears as well.

  2. #522

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Hippeis Bosporitai

    The unit description and stats of this unit don't seem to match, the description is of Bosphoran cataphracts or maybe proto-cataphracts, but the unit has lower defensive skill (and over all defense) than Bosphoran horse archers and loses to them in melee. Should the defensive skill be a few points higher to represent their elite/professional heavy cavalry status and put them in line with other heavy cavalry? Also, are these cavalrymen supposed to have such a low charge stat, it makes them not really work as cataphracts or heavy cavalry, did the Bosphorans not use lances?

    Hippeis Baktrioi

    Should they have an extra point of armor? They do have front barding on all or almost all units, in comparison Boii/Gallic noble cavalry has the same armor stat after their reforms with no horse barding at all (taking each reform level as plus one armor point, I know the system interprets it as +2 or +2.5, meaning Gallic cavalry end up with 9 armor putting them 1 point under a Parthian cataphract and three more than the Baktrians). Might also need an extra point of defensive skill if they're supposed to be nobles/elites (Thessalians hit 9, and these are supposed to be part native/nomadic).

    German Club Infantry (Slahandiz) vs. Indian Macemen (Ksatriya Gadáhasta Yoddah)

    The first unit is untrained, but has a charge value of 6, the second is trained, but has a charge value of 4, is this intended?

  3. #523

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganos Paran View Post
    Hippeis Bosporitai

    The unit description and stats of this unit don't seem to match, the description is of Bosphoran cataphracts or maybe proto-cataphracts, but the unit has lower defensive skill (and over all defense) than Bosphoran horse archers and loses to them in melee. Should the defensive skill be a few points higher to represent their elite/professional heavy cavalry status and put them in line with other heavy cavalry? Also, are these cavalrymen supposed to have such a low charge stat, it makes them not really work as cataphracts or heavy cavalry, did the Bosphorans not use lances?

    Hippeis Baktrioi

    Should they have an extra point of armor? They do have front barding on all or almost all units, in comparison Boii/Gallic noble cavalry has the same armor stat after their reforms with no horse barding at all (taking each reform level as plus one armor point, I know the system interprets it as +2 or +2.5, meaning Gallic cavalry end up with 9 armor putting them 1 point under a Parthian cataphract and three more than the Baktrians). Might also need an extra point of defensive skill if they're supposed to be nobles/elites (Thessalians hit 9, and these are supposed to be part native/nomadic).

    German Club Infantry (Slahandiz) vs. Indian Macemen (Ksatriya Gadáhasta Yoddah)

    The first unit is untrained, but has a charge value of 6, the second is trained, but has a charge value of 4, is this intended?

    • The Hippeis Bosporitai mainly represent the late mounted citizen militias that sprang up during the later two centuries of the Bosphoran Kingdom after the Bosphoran Civil War (Justifying their defense skill of 6 and morale of 4) , they were well equipped and could devote time for training but lacked the elan of the nomadic riders in the wider Ponto Caspian Steppe. The proto-cataphracts are already represented in a way by the Skuda Azdata.




    • The vast majority of the fully upgraded Eporeda Donnoi wore chainmail, which justifies their armor of 7 (or 9 or 9.5 if you stretch the in-game interpretation). But for the Hippeis Baktrioi, although most of their mounts have barding, a fair few of the men still wear tube and yoke along with scale and plate, which equates to an armor value of 6, compare that to Hetairoi where all their mounts have better barding and all the men wore muscle cuirasses (They have an armor value of 7). Additionally, the Hippeis Baktrioi were not elite units but were mustered cavalrymen made up of a mixture of Hellenistic Settlers and Hellenized portions of the native Bactrian and Sogdian aristocracies (Their skills and traditions were not homogenous), hence the defense skill of 8 as a reasonable middle ground (They were still fantastic cavalrymen all things considered).




    • I agree with you on this one, the charge bonuses of the Ksatriya Gadáhasta Yoddah, Slahandiz and Perhunalos should be at least equalized to 6.
    To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
    - Sun Tzu



  4. #524

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by realm56 View Post
    • The Hippeis Bosporitai mainly represent the late mounted citizen militias that sprang up during the later two centuries of the Bosphoran Kingdom after the Bosphoran Civil War (Justifying their defense skill of 6 and morale of 4) , they were well equipped and could devote time for training but lacked the elan of the nomadic riders in the wider Ponto Caspian Steppe. The proto-cataphracts are already represented in a way by the Skuda Azdata.




    • The vast majority of the fully upgraded Eporeda Donnoi wore chainmail, which justifies their armor of 7 (or 9 or 9.5 if you stretch the in-game interpretation). But for the Hippeis Baktrioi, although most of their mounts have barding, a fair few of the men still wear tube and yoke along with scale and plate, which equates to an armor value of 6, compare that to Hetairoi where all their mounts have better barding and all the men wore muscle cuirasses (They have an armor value of 7). Additionally, the Hippeis Baktrioi were not elite units but were mustered cavalrymen made up of a mixture of Hellenistic Settlers and Hellenized portions of the native Bactrian and Sogdian aristocracies (Their skills and traditions were not homogenous), hence the defense skill of 8 as a reasonable middle ground (They were still fantastic cavalrymen all things considered).




    • I agree with you on this one, the charge bonuses of the Ksatriya Gadáhasta Yoddah, Slahandiz and Perhunalos should be at least equalized to 6.
    Thanks for going through this!

    The Bosphoran point makes a lot of sense, so they're supposed to be more of a greek militia cavalry, rather than multi-ethnic local elites/heavy cavalry like in the unit description?

    On the Hippeis Baktrioi point, the Eporeda Donnoi have 3 chain mail models and one leather armor model, so about 75% of their unit has mail and 25% are in leather (might be 66% and 33% if I counted wrong), the Baktrians have 1 tube and yoke model, 2 scale models, and 1 muscled cuirass, so 20% tube and yoke, 50% scaled, and 25% in muscled cuirasses, and then every single baktrian horse has a metal face plate, there is one animal skin barding, 1 scale barding, and 1 metal chest band, and 1 lamellar barding on the horses, while the gauls have no horse armor. All in all I think the armor level of the baktrian soldiers is about the same as the gauls, and added the horse armor probably pushes them up a point over them, otherwise the horse armor has no effect whatsoever. Ultimately it is your/the team's decision, but I believe there's a fairly strong case that the Baktrian armor stat is a bit low (even excluding the system's weird interpretation of armor upgrades as multiple points).

  5. #525

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Hippeis Baktrioi now have good stamina, where in previous version they didn't. If their armour is increased to 5, then it would be the same as many heavy cavalry units (lydian lancers, thessalians, etc.) and imo it would not justify having that kind of armour and good stamina at the same time.

  6. #526
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    I'm curious, why do Thraikioi Mezenai have such low unit size? Thracians were historically fond of cavalry and even Zibutai, their nobles, have larger unit size.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    They're a Hellenised/settler unit.
    To add to Sar1n's questioning, the Thraikioi Mezenai lack the hardy attribute despite their description lauding their training and experience.

  7. #527

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    Hippeis Baktrioi now have good stamina, where in previous version they didn't. If their armour is increased to 5, then it would be the same as many heavy cavalry units (lydian lancers, thessalians, etc.) and imo it would not justify having that kind of armour and good stamina at the same time.
    Are you talking about the Hippotoxotai Baktrioi (the horse archers)? The unit I was referencing is the baktrian heavy cavalry/lancers.

  8. #528

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The Bosphoran point makes a lot of sense, so they're supposed to be more of a greek militia cavalry, rather than multi-ethnic local elites/heavy cavalry like in the unit description?
    Late Bosporan cavalry represents significant changes in the kingdom's society, as well as expansion of the Sarmatians tribes and their culture.
    By the second century BCE the kingdom was not able to afford significant mercenary force and had to relay more on the local militia, which does not necessarily mean that it was solely Greek, because locals and Hellenes lived together. Also, at that period starting to appear gravestones with images of the locals as heavy cavalry, which was a beginning of creation of the Bosporan cataphracts that attested in the first century CE. So, the Hippies Bosporitai represents the process of creation of the local heavy cavalry in the Sarmatian style.

  9. #529

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    It is a good question about lances, we had a lot of debates about it, but it seems they didn't use them yet in the second century BCE

  10. #530

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    Hippeis Baktrioi now have good stamina, where in previous version they didn't. If their armour is increased to 5, then it would be the same as many heavy cavalry units (lydian lancers, thessalians, etc.) and imo it would not justify having that kind of armour and good stamina at the same time.
    If that is the case, we would also have to do the same for the Hippeis Bosporitai and Khsai Baragatæ (They also have 5 armor and have very good stamina), that would not make a whole lot of sense considering that the mounts used for the aforementioned units plus the Hippotoxotai Baktrioi (If I recall correctly) would have been lighter compared to the heavier warhorses used for the Lydian lancers and Thessalians would have been specifically breed to bear the addition weight of their armor but they could be ponderous in comparison to lighter mounts.
    To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
    - Sun Tzu



  11. #531

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Carthage can no longer recruit Carthaginian Elite Calvary (Unit ID 213 in previous EDU) in version 2.35A R3.5. Is this intentional?

  12. #532

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TvFootball View Post
    Carthage can no longer recruit Carthaginian Elite Calvary (Unit ID 213 in previous EDU) in version 2.35A R3.5. Is this intentional?

    As this was explicitly mentioned in the patch notes, I think it is intentional.

  13. #533

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TvFootball View Post
    Carthage can no longer recruit Carthaginian Elite Calvary (Unit ID 213 in previous EDU) in version 2.35A R3.5. Is this intentional?
    Someone on the EBII team mentioned that the bodyguard versions of Carthaginian Elite Cavalry "suffices", so an entire separate unit of them is too much.

  14. #534

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    Hippeis Baktrioi now have good stamina, where in previous version they didn't. If their armour is increased to 5, then it would be the same as many heavy cavalry units (lydian lancers, thessalians, etc.) and imo it would not justify having that kind of armour and good stamina at the same time.
    Absolutely nothing has changed on the attributes of that unit. If you're referring to something reported on the unit card in-game, that's all garbage anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by TvFootball View Post
    Carthage can no longer recruit Carthaginian Elite Calvary (Unit ID 213 in previous EDU) in version 2.35A R3.5. Is this intentional?
    Intentional and mentioned in the changelog.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; September 03, 2021 at 09:58 AM.

  15. #535

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    @Quintus, I was refering to the bactrian horse archers (Baktrioi Hippotoxotai).

  16. #536

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Bodina (Goidelic Skirmishers):

    Although everything else about them appears uninspiring, one stat really pops out at you, their javelin attack of 10 which is considered elite for javelin skirmishers, higher than Peltenai (9) but just shy of the heavy javelins of the Særægwækha (11). Was there a basis for such a disgustingly high javelin attack (For such a cheap unit?), if not, could it be toned down to somewhere more reasonable (Say 5?).

    EDIT:

    Hatjaknehtoz (Chatti Youths) and Knehtoz (Germanic Skirmishers)

    Their missile attack is also really high for the area (At 9 and 10 respectively), could consider toning it down? (Did fire-hardened javelins really cause so much damage? To my understanding, fire-hardened spears were brittle so the tips would have broken off on contact with a target, reducing its penetrative strength )
    Last edited by realm56; September 16, 2021 at 07:15 PM.
    To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
    - Sun Tzu



  17. #537

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by realm56 View Post
    Bodina (Goidelic Skirmishers):

    Although everything else about them appears uninspiring, one stat really pops out at you, their javelin attack of 10 which is considered elite for javelin skirmishers, higher than Peltenai (9) but just shy of the heavy javelins of the Særægwækha (11). Was there a basis for such a disgustingly high javelin attack (For such a cheap unit?), if not, could it be toned down to somewhere more reasonable (Say 5?).
    Considering they have only 4 ammo rather than 5, I'm guessing it's intentional as they have some kind of heavy javelin.

  18. #538

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Considering they have only 4 ammo rather than 5, I'm guessing it's intentional as they have some kind of heavy javelin.
    4 ammo is typical of other Celtic and Germanic skirmishers such as Koxsalotoi and Frisadruhtiz although others such as Iberian and Numidian Skirmishers along with Velites do have that 5 ammo.
    To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
    - Sun Tzu



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