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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #421
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsesii View Post
    Yes I know Xystophoroi has 10/21.
    For the other stats, I know I can read the EDU

    Still I wonder if 8/21 is intentional.
    It means Hippeis with their stats fall in the category of best alround cav.
    They have decent defence: 4 Arm 6 def
    Their melee is average.
    Their charge is above average.
    The morale is average.

    So again why wre Hippeis consdered as average to bad cav.

    The point Im trying to make is that iff Hippeis are so similar why bother with Xystophoroi.
    I mean from RL perspective. Iff Hippeis had a reasonable charge why then create a unit that does one thing marginaly better for the loss of other things, It makes no sense to me.
    Are they meant to have a kontos as mainweapon. and another overhand spear as secudary, feels and looks odd
    Yes, it's intentional. Weapon stats are based on the weapon used, not some arbitrary decision about "balance", it's shorter than the lance used by the Xystophoroi. Lacking power_charge, their primary attack is significantly worse than that of Xystophoroi, or any other proper lancer cavalry. The secondary spear is often worse than the kopis used by other lancers up close (and they have that because they didn't used to have a secondary weapon at all, which made them useless in melee).

    If you don't know why Hippeis and Xystophoroi both exist, try looking at where you can recruit them. They are different regional expressions of medium cavalry, Hippeis are the older Greek form, Xystophoroi the more "modern" Hellenistic form.

  2. #422
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    Speaking of Barbarian Units and their achilles heel towards armored infantry...

    Is it just me or Heavily Armored Infantry are too OP? It's very noticable as I've played factions with either too few truely heavy infantry (Barbarians) or almost no infantry at all (Nomadic).

    All the high atk power of the barbarians does squat when 3 of their men die for every 1 armored infantry they take down every second. You either hope you have cavalry to flank them, anti-armor units or the army leader dies and even then you are left with units of infantry utterly weakened by losses.
    IMO: this feels right for the melee. However, I think the problem is the charge mechanics in the EBII. Because of low hit-rates (slow killing), the same time of charge inflicts much less damage than in the other mods. I think it has adverse effect on the barbarians warriors in the EBI: the charge doesn't give the initial punch, as it should historically do, imo. The least what could be done, is to increase the charge values, or provide more barbarian units with the "powerful_charge" attribute (some units do have it.)

  3. #423
    ramsesii's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I think you mis the point.

    I know the difference between Hippeis and Xystophoroi .

    Its just that hippeis perform so good in game that it doesn't reflect the average name they had.
    - Powercharge is IMO overrated, the difference is verry situational.
    - their secundary attack is often equal to the Kopis because of the low armour in this game, ergo AP isnt super powerful.

    Because of both imo the stat differences arent big enough to give both units a different feel.
    lowering the CB with 4 or 5 would give both a whole differend feel.



    just my opinion
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  4. #424
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsesii View Post
    I think you mis the point.

    I know the difference between Hippeis and Xystophoroi .

    Its just that hippeis perform so good in game that it doesn't reflect the average name they had.
    - Powercharge is IMO overrated, the difference is verry situational.
    - their secundary attack is often equal to the Kopis because of the low armour in this game, ergo AP isnt super powerful.

    Because of both imo the stat differences arent big enough to give both units a different feel.
    lowering the CB with 4 or 5 would give both a whole differend feel.



    just my opinion
    No, I just don't agree with the point you are making, which is that we should make gamey adjustments to weapon stats for no reason other than your opinion.

    Charge bonuses are based on the weapon used, nothing else.

    Charges working at all is "situational", if you execute a proper charge, you will get power_charge. The kopis matters most when dealing with heavily armoured infantry (like Hoplitai) and heavier cavalry (like bodyguards).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    IMO: this feels right for the melee. However, I think the problem is the charge mechanics in the EBII. Because of low hit-rates (slow killing), the same time of charge inflicts much less damage than in the other mods. I think it has adverse effect on the barbarians warriors in the EBI: the charge doesn't give the initial punch, as it should historically do, imo. The least what could be done, is to increase the charge values, or provide more barbarian units with the "powerful_charge" attribute (some units do have it.)
    Celtic warrior-grade units have power_charge because it was a specific facet of their style of warfare.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; May 10, 2019 at 09:46 AM.

  5. #425

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Uiroi Nantuon (Silurian Warband) vs Gaisatoi (Those of the Spear) and Nedes Nesamoi (Celtic Retainers)

    Silurians have a melee attack of 9, Gaisatoi and Nedes Nesamoi have a melee attack of 8. Seems fishy to me.

  6. #426

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Major report on Sweboz armor.

    One of our fellow forum members pointed out that some Sweboz units have an armor rating of 3 despite not wearing any armor. I reviewed the units and I will list the odd stuff bellow.

    1. Ridanz (early and late) - no armor on rider/horse - armor rating of 2. Western celtic cavalry has the same armor rating, despite having torso armor and leather/bronze helmets. Too high.

    2. Herunoudozez - Bodyguard infantry - 1 helmet, 2 suits of mail and 2 models wearing clothes, no leg protection - armor rating of 6. It's hard to find a unit to compare it to, but this feels a bit too high.

    3. Herunoudozez (Germanic Heavy Infantry) - initially 1 wooden helmet and one mail armor - armor rating of 4. Also hard to find a unit to compare it to, but feels a bit too high.

    4. Langabardo Halithoz (Lombard Warriors) - no armor - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    5. Dugunthiz Early and Late (Germanic Veteran Spearman) - no armor - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    6. Skathinawiskaniz Harjoz (Early Scandinavian Spearmen) - I think they have 1 wooden helmet, no body and leg protection - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    7. Basternai Draugai (Basternian Companions) - initially 1 leather scale armor, no head/leg protection - armor rating of 3. Too high.

    The armor rating for units 4, 5 and 6 should drop to 1 while the others should lose 1 point.
    Anything happening with this? These are core and elite units.

  7. #427
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Anything happening with this? These are core and elite units.
    There's been a general reduction by a point.

  8. #428

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    There's been a general reduction by a point.
    The Langabardo Halithoz (Lombard Warriors), Dugunthiz Early and Late (Germanic Veteran Spearman) and Skathinawiskaniz Harjoz (Early Scandinavian Spearmen) now have an armor rating of 2? Still too much for them.

  9. #429

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Something that's bothering me for sometime is what kind of armor the HA units like the Aorsi and Alan Horse Archers are wearing that let's them have 3 defense when compared with the others only having 2?

    The description in the Aorsi HA say they are wearing "simple armor". What kind of armor it is? Is it leather armor or something similar? They don't look different comparing them side-by-side to the others having only 2 defense.
    Last edited by Tactics Mayers; May 21, 2019 at 07:52 AM.

  10. #430

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    So, I was reading the description of the Aswar I Mad (Median cavalry). It says "the spear is suitable in individual combat [...] rather than charge home as one would with the kontos." Yet, they have a charge value of 21 and the powerful charge attribute.

  11. #431

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    How do I lock morale and stamina in units? For testing purposes, I need a unit that does not break and tire.

  12. #432

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    How do I lock morale and stamina in units? For testing purposes, I need a unit that does not break and tire.
    Found it.

  13. #433
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    How do I lock morale and stamina in units? For testing purposes, I need a unit that does not break and tire.
    Rad, are you testing other options of morale, like having a broader spectrum of it?

  14. #434

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I managed to lock morale and stamina via the preferences. I want to see if different battle difficulty levels change anything other than morale and stamina.

  15. #435

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I had a look at the heavy hoplites.

    Unit: Baktrian defenders
    Armor rating: 8
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: none have greaves
    Body armor: 2 muscle cuirass, 1 linothorax, 1 scale armor, 1 model doesn't wear body armor at all

    Unit: C. Triarii
    Armor rating: 9
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: 3 muscled cuirass, 2 linothorax

    Unit: Agema phalangites
    Armor rating: 9
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: 2 muscled cuirass, 2 linothorax

    Unit: Pontic hoplites
    Armor rating: 9
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: most have greaves
    Body armor: 1 reinforced linothorax, 1 scale armor, 1 scale thorax, 1 linothorax

    Unit: Spartan hoplites
    Armor rating: 9
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: 2 muscle cuirass, 1 metal thorax, 1 linothorax with a solid torso metal plate reinforcement

    Unit: Hyperaspistai
    Armor rating: 9
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: 1 muscle cuirass, 3 linothorax

    Unit: Sacred Band
    Armor rating: 11
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: 3 muscled cuirass, 2 scale thorax

    Unit: Hypaspistai
    Armor rating:11
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: All have muscled cuirass


    Unit: Epilektoi hoplitai
    Armor rating: 11
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: All have muscled cuirass


    Disclaimer: Some of the armor I labelled as "linothorax" could be viewed as "reinforced linothorax".



    I am still not entirely sure what I think of this, but my first impression is that some units got 1 point more armor than they should.
    Last edited by Rad; April 05, 2020 at 12:14 PM.

  16. #436

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I had a look at the heavy hoplites.

    Unit: Baktrian defenders
    Armor rating: 8
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: none have greaves
    Body armor: 2 muscle cuirass, 1 linothorax, 1 scale armor, 1 model doesn't wear body armor at all

    Unit: C. Triarii
    Armor rating: 9
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: 3 muscled cuirass, 2 linothorax

    Unit: Agema phalangites
    Armor rating: 9
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: 2 muscled cuirass, 2 linothorax

    Unit: Pontic hoplites
    Armor rating: 9
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: most have greaves
    Body armor: 1 reinforced linothorax, 1 scale armor, 1 scale thorax, 1 linothorax

    Unit: Spartan hoplites
    Armor rating: 9
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: 2 muscle cuirass, 1 metal thorax, 1 linothorax with a solid torso metal plate reinforcement

    Unit: Hyperaspistai
    Armor rating: 9
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: 1 muscle cuirass, 3 linothorax

    Unit: Sacred Band
    Armor rating: 11
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: 3 muscled cuirass, 2 scale thorax

    Unit: Hypaspistai
    Armor rating:11
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: All have muscled cuirass


    Unit: Epilektoi hoplitai
    Armor rating: 11
    Helmets: All have helmets
    Greaves: All have greaves
    Body armor: All have muscled cuirass


    Disclaimer: Some of the armor I labelled as "linothorax" could be viewed as "reinforced linothorax".



    I am still not entirely sure what I think of this, but my first impression is that some units got 1 point more armor than they should.
    Umm, looks like Spartans would deserve a 10 as they are always have something better than linothorax while all the other 9s have a good share of linothorax. Pontic really feels like an 8 due tot he lower armor mix up and not having full greaves. I dont know about bactrians, no greaves and one mdoel not wearing armor at all makes them a wild card as most have good armor too. But going lower than 8 doesnt feel right as 7 is standard hoplite armour. Maybe the breakdown from the standard hoplite would help comparisons too.

    Also, just a curiosity question for the team. Why do Bactrians have the lower overall armour and those big difference between them? Feels weird tha the elite of such a wealthy palce as Baktria wont afford a better lowest standard of armour. I guess local customs may pay a part but still, why would you cut on the thing that helps to keep you alive specially as line infantry?

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  17. #437

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I will take advantage of that last question to ask, why do the Pritanoi have so little armor overall despite being in a mineral rich environment? Balance, or history?

  18. #438

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I am pretty sure that pritanoi have a lack of armour based off historical accuracy. Im not well versed in the academia but what I remember is that armour was rare and only elites /nobles. Free men, clan men would have no armour to speak of.

    I would suggest being resource rich in minerals is not that big a factor in armamnount. High population density allowing for elites / nobles is more important. Minerals is important if it is worth a large amount like gold or silver but even then requires an organised social structure to make use of it. Interested in others thoughts.

    On baktria, armour is very warm and the climate there would be hot. If you are walking less armour sounds good. The only text I have read on baktria didn't cover armamnount of infantry so just guessing??

  19. #439

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdr View Post
    I am pretty sure that pritanoi have a lack of armour based off historical accuracy. Im not well versed in the academia but what I remember is that armour was rare and only elites /nobles. Free men, clan men would have no armour to speak of.

    I would suggest being resource rich in minerals is not that big a factor in armamnount. High population density allowing for elites / nobles is more important. Minerals is important if it is worth a large amount like gold or silver but even then requires an organised social structure to make use of it. Interested in others thoughts.

    On baktria, armour is very warm and the climate there would be hot. If you are walking less armour sounds good. The only text I have read on baktria didn't cover armamnount of infantry so just guessing??
    Industry/economy plays a role. You have to have the means, not only the resources.

    About Baktria, did some checks and the climate doesnt seem too different from other zones around the mediterranean which have a lot of heavy infantry. Maximum temperatures are somewhat higher than waht coastal zones would get, but inland med reach those too. In addition been seemingly much less humid which should make the sensation of the heat much less sultry, which helps with the armour. Of course not comfortable at all either way but doesn't seem like enough of a condition alone by comparison. Specially given its not just lighter armour across the board (barring greave use) but that you have a huge spread going from the heaviest armour to no armor within their ranks.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



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