Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

[realm56]

Hippotoxotai Baktrioi and Somatophylakes Strategou (Kimmerios Bosporos)

These guys have ammunition values of 25 and 21 respectively.

These ammo value are low in comparison to most other horse archer units who have an ammo value of 40 which limits their utility in drawn out missile exchanges with their counterparts with more ammo.

[realm56]

Hippotoxotai Baktrioi and Thureopherontes Hippotoxotai

Armourwise, they are the same (Both have 4 armour) except that some models for the Thureopherontes Hippotoxotai are unarmoured, but some have tube+yoke and a few have scale/chain mail. Hippotoxotai Baktrioi however all have at least tube+yoke with some models equipped with scale. It would be preferable for Hippotoxotai Baktrioi to get a buff to their armour from 4 to 5 (In line with Somatophylakes Strategou (Kimmerios Bosporos)).

As far as secondary attack is concerned, the swords for Hippotoxotai Baktrioi appear longer (More suited for cavalry use) compared to the Scythian style swords used by the Thureopherontes Hippotoxotai yet the latter have 12 attack and 6 charge compared to 11 attack (That 11 attack is also present on Hippeis Baktrioi) and 5 charge for the former (I do understand that both units were drawn from equestrian communities and were well trained/drilled and equipped but with some members of the Thureopherontes Hippotoxotai drawn from the nomads who were in the Hellenized class and as such retained their skills compared to the Hippotoxotai Baktrioi who had likely incorporated more recent arrivals who were trained to fight as horse archers.)

[realm56]

Lonchophoroi Hippeis and Aspidiotai Hippeis

Lonchophoroi Hippeis should recieve an armour upgrade (From 4 to 5) for similar reasons listed for Hippotoxotai Baktrioi as all models have at least tube+yoke with some models equipped with muscle cuirasses. Their defense skill of 5 is also low compared to their Aspidiotai counterparts who carry bulkier shields and have a defense skill of 6.

[Hellenikon]

Revise the shield values of phalangites to be consistent for each class. For example makhimoi have shield 4, but carry a leather shield like pantodapoi which is 3. Mercenary phalangitai carry a different shield that standard phalangitai. Shield values should be revised to match on shield size and material.

[realm56]

Uazali (Karian Warband)

• Their armor value should be decreased from 3 to 1 (Their models suggest that they wear the bare minimum of armor).

Uextias (East Celt raiders), Katusages (Galatian Raiders) and Gaisatoi (Gallic Naked Fanatics)

• Their armor value should be decreased from 1 to 0 (They are practically nude ffs...), for the Galatians, a few extra tunics and a few shiny new helmets via amour upgrade should only really justify an armor rating of 1.

Tegewridoi (Lugian Early Spearmen)

• Their armor value should be decreased from 3 to 2 (Should be the same value as the Druhtiz )

Þakawardiwiz(Lugian Late Spearmen)

• Their armor value should be decreased from 4 to 2 (Should be the same value as the Late Druhtiz )

Komatai (Dacian Skirmishers)

• Their armor value should be decreased from 3 to 2

More to come....

[bordinis]

I don t think any units in the game should be armour value of 0. That just doesn t make any gameplay sense whatsoever. Any useless archer then kills them on mass. You are looking at the models in game we actually have no idea what leather any of the retainers for Lougiones wore. Maybe they weren t that poor and not everyone had only cloaks, probably good chunk of them had something they wore under cloaks. Since leather and cloaks are not found because of erosion, no one knows what they had. So armour values should stay for tribal factions as they are since losing that much armour will decrease factions stability gameplay wise in the late game. That s the fun part of Earth s history there is only 4 % truth in it and everything else- no one knows for sure.

[realm56]

I don t think any units in the game should be armour value of 0. That just doesn t make any gameplay sense whatsoever. Any useless archer then kills them on mass. You are looking at the models in game we actually have no idea what leather any of the retainers for Lougiones wore. Maybe they weren t that poor and not everyone had only cloaks, probably good chunk of them had something they wore under cloaks. Since leather and cloaks are not found because of erosion, no one knows what they had. So armour values should stay for tribal factions as they are since losing that much armour will decrease factions stability gameplay wise in the late game. That s the fun part of Earth s history there is only 4 % truth in it and everything else- no one knows for sure.

My basis for the armour downgrades that go to 0 is based on the fact that Gaisokrotiatoi (Caledonian Spearmen) have 0 armour by default. You have a point regarding the leather some tribal units wore (I really should not jump to conclusions, thanks for the reminder...perhaps future finds may contradict some of the stuff team has assembled, its all evidence based which is good), the suggestions for Uazali, Uextias, Gaisatoi and Katusages should still stand though...the concept of assigning any armor points to a bunch of nude guys is still pretty foreign to me.

[bordinis]

Yes indeed but we also have to take care into consideration gameplay balance and balance in all of the factions. Let s not make a roman centric mod like others did. Caledonians should have armour of 1 I think and most naked units. Chasing history is one thing but we also have to understand we are having a game on our hands and games must be balanced especially the power levels in the late game where some Greco-Roman factions might over power tribal factions dramatically. We also can give all the cataphract cavalry armour values of 12 but that would be nonsense gameplay wise, they would be unbeatable since royal infantry in this game are represented as 10 or 11 armour. So yes the game needs a revision on armour values atleast and a system for all units. There are flaws there we know it. Like the new Arras swordsmen they were thought to have two handers but they did one hander swords for them and 4 armour, but we don t know what they wore. So a mistery, we can guess retainers had money for leather armours under cloaks and 2 or 3 different weapons, they fought in formations and outside formations, it is tricky to tell. We simply don t know. 1 thought just came into my mind. Where are the rest of Seleukid silvershields represented in the game? We have phalangites and where are the chainmail swordsmen? They are mentioned alongside agema phalangites as a royal core.

[eyelurker]

Eh just think that armor 1 is basicly their own flesh protection and any above that means a lot of them wearing some form of protection even if it's just a helmet and a thick tunic.

Also don't we have thorakitai and thorakitai epilektoi to represenet diadochi elite chainmail infantry? They could make a new model for chainmail swordsman like thureophoroi and machiaphoroi but i already struggle to field and resupply thorakitai so i'm not sure about seperating them into two unit would be a good idea

[bordinis]

Thorakitai epilektoi are a placeholder unit for hellenic factions. I still have hope the team will differentiate late game elites for hellenic factions to make them stand out and not be clones to each other like was done with 3 of the gallic factions in Europe. They could do an elite unit for Seleukidai as a replacement for thorakitai epilektoi but this time it could represent thorax swords with good stats also royal galatian guard for Ptolemeis would be awesome instead of thorakitai epilektoi.

[Hellenikon]

Where are the rest of Seleukid silvershields represented in the game? We have phalangites and where are the chainmail swordsmen? They are mentioned alongside agema phalangites as a royal core.

Makedonian peltasts carry silver shields as well, I think they represent these.

[Aodh Mór Ó Néill]

They could make a new model for chainmail swordsman like thureophoroi and machiaphoroi but i already struggle to field and resupply thorakitai so i'm not sure about seperating them into two unit would be a good idea

Eh I haven't actually played a game until 222 BC yet since the patch but according to the patch notes thorakitai numbers have been beefed up for all Hellenic factions.

Thorakitai epilektoi are a placeholder unit for hellenic factions.

Any team member that can verify this? Can we hope to see more Hellenic elite units in the future?

Makedonian peltasts carry silver shields as well, I think they represent these.

I was hoping for a future machariophoi armour upgrade, but thorakitai peltastai would be the cherry on top of a beautiful chainmail-clad cake.

[QuintusSertorius]

Thorakitai epilektoi are a placeholder unit for hellenic factions. I still have hope the team will differentiate late game elites for hellenic factions to make them stand out and not be clones to each other like was done with 3 of the gallic factions in Europe. They could do an elite unit for Seleukidai as a replacement for thorakitai epilektoi but this time it could represent thorax swords with good stats also royal galatian guard for Ptolemeis would be awesome instead of thorakitai epilektoi.

Uh no. It's a placeholder model, there are no plans to have multiple different units for the same thing. The point is it's not the finished version of the unit.

[Aodh Mór Ó Néill]

Uh no. It's a placeholder model, there are no plans to have multiple different units for the same thing. The point is it's not the finished version of the unit.

That's a surprise, because the current "placeholder" looks good enough to be the finished model.

On that note, if the epilektoi getting a new model soon, the current placeholder (with smaller shields) should be used for the normal thorakitai. The current thorakitai model is starting to show its age.

[Domeric_Bolton]

Bosporan Somatophylakes have a melee attack of 11, whilst the Tarabostes have a melee attack of 4. This makes absolutley no sense to me, can someone explain?

[Sar1n]

Bosporan Somatophylakes have a melee attack of 11, whilst the Tarabostes have a melee attack of 4. This makes absolutley no sense to me, can someone explain?

Cavalry without ranged weapons have primary and secondary melee weapon. Primary is used when charging, secondary during melee after charge. You can't see secondary melee weapon stats ingame, you have to use recruitment viewer.

Tarabostes have 10 secondary melee attack. Phylakes Daoi, Getai bodyguard cavalry have 13.

[Shoebopp]

Bosporan Horse Archers should have their upkeep and recruitment costs increased. They have incredibly good equipment, with a staggering melee attack of 12 owing to their longswords and good armor at 4, with a decent shield of 2. That is nothing to speak of their bow sidearm. They have outfought Hellenistic Elite Cavalry (Hetairoi) before, which cost around 500 in upkeep and do not have bows. This is assuming of course that EBII still calculates costs based on equipment.

[Hellenikon]

Aspidiotai hippeis and Lonchoporoi hippeis (the reformed hellenistic cavalry, west and east variants) have insanely fast horses that outrun many skirmisher and light cavalry units. I think the asipidiotai should be around the speed of the lydian lancers and thessalians, but currently they are fast like pure eastern cav such as caucasian lancers, median lancers or cappadocian cavalry.

[QuintusSertorius]

Aspidiotai hippeis and Lonchoporoi hippeis (the reformed hellenistic cavalry, west and east variants) have insanely fast horses that outrun many skirmisher and light cavalry units. I think the asipidiotai should be around the speed of the lydian lancers and thessalians, but currently they are fast like pure eastern cav such as caucasian lancers, median lancers or cappadocian cavalry.

They're exactly the same speed as the Hippeis, and slower than the Xystophoroi. Slower than any skirmisher or light cavalry units.

Could this be a function of their smaller units being faster to turn and change position?

[realm56]

Could this be a function of their smaller units being faster to turn and change position?

Yeah, I have also noticed that depleted units pre 2.35A R3 did indeed move better with lower numbers which could be useful for squeezing a cavalry detachment through a gap in an infantry formation or executing a tight turn to lose a pursuing cavalry unit, but you would be sacrificing longevity and killing power to use a smaller cavalry unit (Especially Roman Equites and Xystophroroi, down from 100 men to 60 respectively).