Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

[eyelurker]

Erenag Payadag and Aryanag Payadag (western and eastern archer spearman) currently has an upkeep of a whopping 180 which is slightly lower with Cretan archer with none of the strengh whether in missle or melee.

In wiki their upkeep used to be 113 which i think is far more appropiate.

[QuintusSertorius]

Erenag Payadag and Aryanag Payadag (western and eastern archer spearman) currently has an upkeep of a whopping 180 which is slightly lower with Cretan archer with none of the strengh whether in missle or melee.

In wiki their upkeep used to be 113 which i think is far more appropiate.

Upkeep isn't random, it's 3/16th of recruitment cost. The Archer-Spearmen are line infantry, not skirmishers.

[Shoebopp]

The Marian Auxiliary Cavalry have a shield of 2 despite all of them carrying Thureos or Hexagonal shields. It should be buffed to 3 like all other cavalry carrying shields this big

[Shoebopp]

Thureopherontes Hippeis have an armor value of 3, but they have too few armor models compared to other 3-armor units like Raskumezenai, and some soldiers don't wear helmets. It should be reduced to 2. Likewise, they have a shield value of 2, despite using a large Thureos shield, and should be buffed to 3.

Hippeis Tarentinoi have rather low morale despite being described as "the elite skirmishing cavalry" of the Italiotes. Their morale could be buffed from 2 to 3 or even 4.

Lonchophoroi Hippeis have almost identical armor distribution with Aspidiotai Hippeis, but have an armor of only 4 instead of 5. It should match that of the lancers. In addition, their defense skill could be buffed from 5 to 6 to make them more skillful than Thureopherontes Hippeis.

Here's a controversial one: Hoplites, as in the social caste, should be nerfed across the board. The reason is that they were historically completely untrained citizens given heavy arms and thrust into battle. They didn't even train like a militia. As such, their defense skill should be nerfed from 5 to 2 (or to 3. The -1 penalty to hoplite units may no longer be necessary). That puts them on-par with other levy units like Celtic Vassals.

Same goes for Liby-Phoenician Hoplites.

Same goes for Etruscan Hoplites.

This also means Spartan Hoplites should have their defense skill nerfed from 8 (professional-grade) to 5 (militia-grade). The Spartans were notable for actually training for battle, though nowhere near to the degree that popular culture depicts. The fact that they trained AT ALL was enough to give them a slight edge over their fellow Greek rivals and propel them into infamy. Following this, their morale should be lowered by 1 and their attack reduced from 11 to 8.

[Shoebopp]

Libyan Late Infantry (the spearmen) have an armor value of 5 despite everyone wearing linothorax and helmets, just like Libyan Swordsmen, which have a higher armor value of 6. The former should be buffed a bit (and perhaps even given an armor upgrade just like their sword counterparts?)

Thracian Colonists have an armor value of 7 despite not wearing any greaves like the 7-armor Hellenistic Assault Infantry do. Their defensive panoply (linothorax and helmet) matches that of West Anatolian Elite Infantry, which have an armor value of 6. The colonists should have their armor nerfed.

[QuintusSertorius]

Here's a controversial one: Hoplites, as in the social caste, should be nerfed across the board. The reason is that they were historically completely untrained citizens given heavy arms and thrust into battle. They didn't even train like a militia. As such, their defense skill should be nerfed from 5 to 2 (or to 3. The -1 penalty to hoplite units may no longer be necessary). That puts them on-par with other levy units like Celtic Vassals.

Same goes for Liby-Phoenician Hoplites.

Same goes for Etruscan Hoplites.

This also means Spartan Hoplites should have their defense skill nerfed from 8 (professional-grade) to 5 (militia-grade). The Spartans were notable for actually training for battle, though nowhere near to the degree that popular culture depicts. The fact that they trained AT ALL was enough to give them a slight edge over their fellow Greek rivals and propel them into infamy. Following this, their morale should be lowered by 1 and their attack reduced from 11 to 8.

I'm not so sure about that. Men of the hoplite class, traditionally, served for two years as an ephebe, learning all the skills necessary to serve and also carrying out tasks like roadbuilding. They were expected to carry on practising in the gymnasion after that time, as well as being ready to be called up whenever necessary.

The difference with the Spartans was that they didn't stop training and return to the normal activities of a yeoman farmer.

[Mamlaz]

Yeah hoplites did absolutely train and drill, they just didn't have properly structured programs of doing so.

Levies and mustered men most often did have quite an amount of training before they ever clashed in battle.

Keep in mind that even after being mustered, non-professional soldiers, even if completely untrained, would often have weeks and months of time from being levied to the moment of first battle.

So if a war started in the beginning of warring season, the levied citizenry could be drilled every day from the start of the conflict til they actually met their enemy, which often times took at least weeks.

Consider how even medieval citizen militias were turned into soldiers in quite a capable fashion during the late medieval period, let alone far more centralized examples such as Hellenistic polises.

[randy_cat]

Upkeep isn't random, it's 3/16th of recruitment cost. The Archer-Spearmen are line infantry, not skirmishers.

I noticed many units in EB2 have their cost kinda messed up a bit... one example is the archer spearmen, they cost a lot despite being quite weak. While some elite units like western anatolian champions are rather cheap compared to their strength. But since many elite units take kinda forever to be recruitable, i guess this is the reason why they are not very expensive.

[QuintusSertorius]

I noticed many units in EB2 have their cost kinda messed up a bit... one example is the archer spearmen, they cost a lot despite being quite weak. While some elite units like western anatolian champions are rather cheap compared to their strength. But since many elite units take kinda forever to be recruitable, i guess this is the reason why they are not very expensive.

No, the formula used is the same. Recruitment has nothing to do with cost, it's based on status, equipment and so on.

[randy_cat]

No, the formula used is the same. Recruitment has nothing to do with cost, it's based on status, equipment and so on.

I was talking about how several units may have an upkeep cost which is not quite accurate if we only take into account the stats. For example some elite units are really strong but not that expensive to upkeep while some weak units are rather expensive.

[QuintusSertorius]

I was talking about how several units may have an upkeep cost which is not quite accurate if we only take into account the stats. For example some elite units are really strong but not that expensive to upkeep while some weak units are rather expensive.

That's a function of the unit's size, which is a multiplier for the cost. Again, same formula is used for all units.

[Shoebopp]

Persian Heavy Spearmen have a defense skill of 6 (militia grade) despite their historical description depicting them as undergoing the Persian equivalent of the Spartan Agoge. Shooting, hunting, exercising, riding - these activities imply that they are more like dedicated professionals than part time militia. Their defense skill can be buffed to 9, and their spear attack to 6 (they use the underarm spear - is the professional value for underarm spears 6 just like how the one for overarm spears is 8?)

The Dacian Phalanx and Dacian Skirmishers seem to use mini-Thureos shields, but still have shield values of 5. The Dacian Elite Skirmishers meanwhile has the same mini-Thureos, but have a shield value of 4 only. Whatever their intentional shield value should be, 4 or 5, it should be consistent for all three.

[randy_cat]

Persian Heavy Spearmen have a defense skill of 6 (militia grade) despite their historical description depicting them as undergoing the Persian equivalent of the Spartan Agoge. Shooting, hunting, exercising, riding - these activities imply that they are more like dedicated professionals than part time militia. Their defense skill can be buffed to 9, and their spear attack to 6 (they use the underarm spear - is the professional value for underarm spears 6 just like how the one for overarm spears is 8?)

Eastern factions are supposed to have weaker heavy infantry but they have good archers and cavalry instead. Still, they are kinda underwhelming compared to hellenistic armies at least as i see it. I miss some of the cool units that EB1 had, though, they were maybe less accurate but looked great.

[Mamlaz]

Persian Heavy Spearmen have a defense skill of 6 (militia grade) despite their historical description depicting them as undergoing the Persian equivalent of the Spartan Agoge. Shooting, hunting, exercising, riding - these activities imply that they are more like dedicated professionals than part time militia. Their defense skill can be buffed to 9, and their spear attack to 6 (they use the underarm spear - is the professional value for underarm spears 6 just like how the one for overarm spears is 8?)

I agree, the Persian roster should have at least one hyped up heavy infantry.

Eastern factions are supposed to have weaker heavy infantry but they have good archers and cavalry instead. Still, they are kinda underwhelming compared to hellenistic armies at least as i see it. I miss some of the cool units that EB1 had, though, they were maybe less accurate but looked great.

By strengthening the above unit the eastern factions would still have weaker heavy infantry compared to the west.

[randy_cat]

By strengthening the above unit the eastern factions would still have weaker heavy infantry compared to the west.

Western factions have an overall edge over eastern ones, they can field almost any kind of troop and they have expecially good infantry. They only lack really good archers but since archery is kinda weak in europa barbarorum in general, that's not an issue

[Shoebopp]

Levy Hoplites currently have an armor of 3. However, they don't wear any body armor - only helmets. Their armor should be reduced to 2 like the similarly armored Euzonoi. If this is too much of a nerf, their defense skill could be upgraded to 5 like the normal Classical Hoplites. After all, their descriptions, and QS's testimony, imply that all Hellenic citizens go through a basic training program in their youth. The only difference in this case would be wealth. The richer ones can afford excellent armor while the poorer ones have the bare minimum hoplon + pylos helmet, either because they had no choice, or because they were employed as Ekdromoi (those who dash out from the phalanx to chase down skirmishers).

[Shoebopp]

Gallic Swordsmen, Cisalpine Swordsmen, and Mercenary Celtic Swordsmen will receive 2 armor upgrades, eventually buffing their armor from 3 to 8. To account for this, would it make sense to buff their mass to something in between units with an armor of 3 and 8? 1.05 or 1.1 would make sense for all armor upgrades.

[Shoebopp]

Sabellian Spearmen have 1 model with no body armor, and the rest evenly distributed between linothorax and heart-protectors. The Camillan Principes meanwhile have no unarmored models, but have a slightly higher distribution of heart-protectors over linothorax. Despite this, Sabellians have an armor of only 5 while the Principes have an armor value of 6. 6 seems a little high when chest-protectors don't provide full torso protection, so I'd like to suggest nerfing the Principes to 5 armor. The Hastati receive a similar treatment: half heart-protectors and half unarmored. Their armor could be nerfed to 3.

Sabellian Cavalry have no torso armor at all, but their armor is 3, similar to the half-cuirassed Camillan Equites. The Sabellians should be downgraded to an armor of 2, but maybe buff their defense skill from 5 to 6 if you want them to still be viable?

[QuintusSertorius]

Levy Hoplites currently have an armor of 3. However, they don't wear any body armor - only helmets. Their armor should be reduced to 2 like the similarly armored Euzonoi. If this is too much of a nerf, their defense skill could be upgraded to 5 like the normal Classical Hoplites. After all, their descriptions, and QS's testimony, imply that all Hellenic citizens go through a basic training program in their youth. The only difference in this case would be wealth. The richer ones can afford excellent armor while the poorer ones have the bare minimum hoplon + pylos helmet, either because they had no choice, or because they were employed as Ekdromoi (those who dash out from the phalanx to chase down skirmishers).

The richer ones theoretically have more time to train, as well as better equipment. The levy represents the middle chunk of the merchantile class who might technically qualify as hoplites, but don't have all that much free time to spend in the gymnasion maintaining their fitness and skills.

Ekdromoi are best represented by the merc hoplites, as far as the units we actually have, rather than the levies.

Gallic Swordsmen, Cisalpine Swordsmen, and Mercenary Celtic Swordsmen will receive 2 armor upgrades, eventually buffing their armor from 3 to 8. To account for this, would it make sense to buff their mass to something in between units with an armor of 3 and 8? 1.05 or 1.1 would make sense for all armor upgrades.

Hmmm, this is a tricky one, annoying that no one at CA thought to include a mass boost with the armour increase of an upgrade. The same would be true of the Eastern Swordsmen as well, all of them are equivalent units. It would also further distinguish them from the Gargokladoi.

Sabellian Spearmen have 1 model with no body armor, and the rest evenly distributed between linothorax and heart-protectors. The Camillan Principes meanwhile have no unarmored models, but have a slightly higher distribution of heart-protectors over linothorax. Despite this, Sabellians have an armor of only 5 while the Principes have an armor value of 6. 6 seems a little high when chest-protectors don't provide full torso protection, so I'd like to suggest nerfing the Principes to 5 armor. The Hastati receive a similar treatment: half heart-protectors and half unarmored. Their armor could be nerfed to 3.

Sabellian Cavalry have no torso armor at all, but their armor is 3, similar to the half-cuirassed Camillan Equites. The Sabellians should be downgraded to an armor of 2, but maybe buff their defense skill from 5 to 6 if you want them to still be viable?

I'll take a look at those, not opposed to downgrading them if they're over-specced.

[Mamlaz]

The richer ones theoretically have more time to train, as well as better equipment. The levy represents the middle chunk of the merchantile class who might technically qualify as hoplites, but don't have all that much free time to spend in the gymnasion maintaining their fitness and skills.

Eh, nobody really worked all day except slaves on average, even peasants, during planting and harvest weeks they wouldn't have much free time, but like the other half of the year, especially winter would be quite filled with free time for everyone, except slaves ofc.