Hippeis Bosporitai
The unit description and stats of this unit don't seem to match, the description is of Bosphoran cataphracts or maybe proto-cataphracts, but the unit has lower defensive skill (and over all defense) than Bosphoran horse archers and loses to them in melee. Should the defensive skill be a few points higher to represent their elite/professional heavy cavalry status and put them in line with other heavy cavalry? Also, are these cavalrymen supposed to have such a low charge stat, it makes them not really work as cataphracts or heavy cavalry, did the Bosphorans not use lances?
Hippeis Baktrioi
Should they have an extra point of armor? They do have front barding on all or almost all units, in comparison Boii/Gallic noble cavalry has the same armor stat after their reforms with no horse barding at all (taking each reform level as plus one armor point, I know the system interprets it as +2 or +2.5, meaning Gallic cavalry end up with 9 armor putting them 1 point under a Parthian cataphract and three more than the Baktrians). Might also need an extra point of defensive skill if they're supposed to be nobles/elites (Thessalians hit 9, and these are supposed to be part native/nomadic).
German Club Infantry (Slahandiz) vs. Indian Macemen (Ksatriya Gadáhasta Yoddah)
The first unit is untrained, but has a charge value of 6, the second is trained, but has a charge value of 4, is this intended?
- The Hippeis Bosporitai mainly represent the late mounted citizen militias that sprang up during the later two centuries of the Bosphoran Kingdom after the Bosphoran Civil War (Justifying their defense skill of 6 and morale of 4) , they were well equipped and could devote time for training but lacked the elan of the nomadic riders in the wider Ponto Caspian Steppe. The proto-cataphracts are already represented in a way by the Skuda Azdata.
- The vast majority of the fully upgraded Eporeda Donnoi wore chainmail, which justifies their armor of 7 (or 9 or 9.5 if you stretch the in-game interpretation). But for the Hippeis Baktrioi, although most of their mounts have barding, a fair few of the men still wear tube and yoke along with scale and plate, which equates to an armor value of 6, compare that to Hetairoi where all their mounts have better barding and all the men wore muscle cuirasses (They have an armor value of 7). Additionally, the Hippeis Baktrioi were not elite units but were mustered cavalrymen made up of a mixture of Hellenistic Settlers and Hellenized portions of the native Bactrian and Sogdian aristocracies (Their skills and traditions were not homogenous), hence the defense skill of 8 as a reasonable middle ground (They were still fantastic cavalrymen all things considered).
- I agree with you on this one, the charge bonuses of the Ksatriya Gadáhasta Yoddah, Slahandiz and Perhunalos should be at least equalized to 6.
To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
- Sun Tzu
Thanks for going through this!
The Bosphoran point makes a lot of sense, so they're supposed to be more of a greek militia cavalry, rather than multi-ethnic local elites/heavy cavalry like in the unit description?
On the Hippeis Baktrioi point, the Eporeda Donnoi have 3 chain mail models and one leather armor model, so about 75% of their unit has mail and 25% are in leather (might be 66% and 33% if I counted wrong), the Baktrians have 1 tube and yoke model, 2 scale models, and 1 muscled cuirass, so 20% tube and yoke, 50% scaled, and 25% in muscled cuirasses, and then every single baktrian horse has a metal face plate, there is one animal skin barding, 1 scale barding, and 1 metal chest band, and 1 lamellar barding on the horses, while the gauls have no horse armor. All in all I think the armor level of the baktrian soldiers is about the same as the gauls, and added the horse armor probably pushes them up a point over them, otherwise the horse armor has no effect whatsoever. Ultimately it is your/the team's decision, but I believe there's a fairly strong case that the Baktrian armor stat is a bit low (even excluding the system's weird interpretation of armor upgrades as multiple points).
Hippeis Baktrioi now have good stamina, where in previous version they didn't. If their armour is increased to 5, then it would be the same as many heavy cavalry units (lydian lancers, thessalians, etc.) and imo it would not justify having that kind of armour and good stamina at the same time.
Late Bosporan cavalry represents significant changes in the kingdom's society, as well as expansion of the Sarmatians tribes and their culture.The Bosphoran point makes a lot of sense, so they're supposed to be more of a greek militia cavalry, rather than multi-ethnic local elites/heavy cavalry like in the unit description?
By the second century BCE the kingdom was not able to afford significant mercenary force and had to relay more on the local militia, which does not necessarily mean that it was solely Greek, because locals and Hellenes lived together. Also, at that period starting to appear gravestones with images of the locals as heavy cavalry, which was a beginning of creation of the Bosporan cataphracts that attested in the first century CE. So, the Hippies Bosporitai represents the process of creation of the local heavy cavalry in the Sarmatian style.
It is a good question about lances, we had a lot of debates about it, but it seems they didn't use them yet in the second century BCE
If that is the case, we would also have to do the same for the Hippeis Bosporitai and Khsai Baragatæ (They also have 5 armor and have very good stamina), that would not make a whole lot of sense considering that the mounts used for the aforementioned units plus the Hippotoxotai Baktrioi (If I recall correctly) would have been lighter compared to the heavier warhorses used for the Lydian lancers and Thessalians would have been specifically breed to bear the addition weight of their armor but they could be ponderous in comparison to lighter mounts.
To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
- Sun Tzu
Carthage can no longer recruit Carthaginian Elite Calvary (Unit ID 213 in previous EDU) in version 2.35A R3.5. Is this intentional?
Last edited by QuintusSertorius; September 03, 2021 at 09:58 AM.
@Quintus, I was refering to the bactrian horse archers (Baktrioi Hippotoxotai).
Bodina (Goidelic Skirmishers):
Although everything else about them appears uninspiring, one stat really pops out at you, their javelin attack of 10 which is considered elite for javelin skirmishers, higher than Peltenai (9) but just shy of the heavy javelins of the Særægwækha (11). Was there a basis for such a disgustingly high javelin attack (For such a cheap unit?), if not, could it be toned down to somewhere more reasonable (Say 5?).
EDIT:
Hatjaknehtoz (Chatti Youths) and Knehtoz (Germanic Skirmishers)
Their missile attack is also really high for the area (At 9 and 10 respectively), could consider toning it down? (Did fire-hardened javelins really cause so much damage? To my understanding, fire-hardened spears were brittle so the tips would have broken off on contact with a target, reducing its penetrative strength )
Last edited by realm56; September 16, 2021 at 07:15 PM.
To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
- Sun Tzu
To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
- Sun Tzu
Sardinian Infantry (shield value of 3) have larger shields than Peltastai Makedones (shield value of 4), yet have a lower shield value. The Sardinians should have their shield value buffed to 4.
Here's a fun suggestion for the players, rather than one for the modders: turn Kretan Infantry and West Anatolian Elite Infantry into skirmishers. Here are their modified EDU entries
; COMMENTS Peltastai Logades (Hellenistic Elite Infantry) / Unit ID 340 / Start exp: 0 / Refr rate: 0,0528 / Pool cap: 5type hellenistic infantry peltastai logades
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_peltastai_logades
category infantry
class skirmish
voice_type Heavy
accent East_Greek
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier peltastai_logades, 48, 0, 1.15, 0.25
officer officer_hellenic_logades
officer officer_hellenic_standardbearer
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, command, hardy, can_withdraw
move_speed_mod 0.87
formation 0.9, 0.9, 1.8, 1.8, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 0, akon, 70, 5, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 11, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 12, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, 0, -2, -4
stat_mental 7, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1440, 270, 72, 144, 1440, 2, 270
stat_stl 6
armour_ug_levels 0
armour_ug_models peltastai_logades
ownership f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu, slave, f_belgai
era 0 f_pontos, f_pergamon, f_bosporan
era 1 f_pontos, f_pergamon, f_bosporan
era 2 f_pontos, f_pergamon, f_bosporan
info_pic_dir f_all
;card_pic_dir f_all
recruit_priority_offset 75Again, I'm not suggesting that these changes go into the main build of EBII. It's a fun way to submod your game into providing Hellenistic players some really heavy skirmishers. Also to break the Thracian Peltast's monopoly on attractive heavy skirmisher units. Make sure to go into text/txt/export_units.txt and rename the following:; COMMENTS Peltastai Kretes (Kretan Infantry) / Unit ID 302 / Start exp: 0 / Refr rate: 0,044 / Pool cap: 5type hellenistic infantry cretan
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_cretan
category infantry
class skirmish
voice_type Light
accent West_Greek
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier kretikoi_peltastai, 64, 0, 1, 0.3
officer officer_hellenic_greek1
officer officer_hellenic_standardbearer
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, hardy, can_withdraw
move_speed_mod 0.87
formation 0.9, 0.9, 1.8, 1.8, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 0, akon, 70, 2, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 9, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, sword, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 5, 9, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, 0, 3, -4
stat_mental 6, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1276, 238, 63, 127, 1276, 8, 238
stat_stl 7
armour_ug_levels 0
armour_ug_models kretikoi_peltastai
ownership f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu, slave, f_belgai
era 0 f_rome, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_pergamon, f_pontos
era 1 f_rome, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_pergamon, f_pontos
era 2 f_rome, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_pergamon, f_pontos, f_nabatu
info_pic_dir f_all
card_pic_dir f_all
recruit_priority_offset 43
Cretan Infantry -> Cretan Skirmishers
West-Anatolian Elite Infantry -> West Anatolian Elite Skirmisher
Late Libyan Spearmen should have their armor buffed from 5 to 6. Visually, their armor is identical to that of Libyan Swordsmen. All linothorax, all helmets. I also suggest giving them the same armor upgrade as the swordsmen.
Volkae and Saluuoi Headhunters could gain the frighten_foot attribute. More for gameplay reasons than historical reasons. A mobile morale debuffer in Western Europe could give any faction that controls southern Gaul an interesting advantage in battles. I'm not sure though how much hanging the heads of your fallen enemies on your horses scares opposing footmen...