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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #461

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    As it stands, Lakonikoi Hoplitai seem a bit redundant. After decades of investing in growing Sparta's population, you finally get to reform the once-mighty military of Sparta and are rewarded with... a slightly worse version of Classical Hoplites (albeit with a beautiful skins - full props to whoever designed them).

    Honestly, apart from roleplaying purposes they seem pretty pointless. Given that they require a reform to unlock, can only be recruited in Sparta, and lore-wise are meant to represent the reformation of Spartan values in the Hellenistic age, it seems more than a little strange that they fight worse than generic hoplites (unless they're a meta commentary on the "Spartan Mirage" and Sparta's military failure - the Last Jedi of EBII units?).

    (Unless there's some reasoning behind their mediocrity that the team haven't yet divulged)?

    I think in order to justify their taking up of a unit slot beyond roleplaying purposes, they should be made superior versions of Classical Hoplites, with worse armour but better fighting skill and morale.

    This would be more historically accurate as well, as weren't the armies of Kleomenes III undefeated prior to Selassia?
    Last edited by Aodh Mór Ó Néill; April 21, 2021 at 12:39 PM.

  2. #462

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The lakonikoi hoplitai are not spartan citizens, they're an upgrade from levy hoplites due to kleomene's reforms. They're not rich enough to afford armour as classical hoplites, those are the spartiates. Kleomenes distributed wealth among everyone so he could have more people fighting for sparta, even if they weren't citizens. Ingame their main advantage is their big unit pool, and being far more competent than levy hoplites. They are the poors of laconia, which were organised by Kleomenes into units by giving them basic weapons and training. They're not meant to replace spartan hoplites.

  3. #463

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Part of that "fix" is also that there shouldn't be as plentiful a supply of Classical Hoplites in Lakonike as other places in Greece either - their pool will reduce before the Agiad reform.

  4. #464

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    The lakonikoi hoplitai are not spartan citizens, they're an upgrade from levy hoplites due to kleomene's reforms. They're not rich enough to afford armour as classical hoplites, those are the spartiates. Kleomenes distributed wealth among everyone so he could have more people fighting for sparta, even if they weren't citizens. Ingame their main advantage is their big unit pool, and being far more competent than levy hoplites. They are the poors of laconia, which were organised by Kleomenes into units by giving them basic weapons and training. They're not meant to replace spartan hoplites.
    Oh ok, I see what you mean now, I thought the Lakonike were meant to replace Classicals, not levies.

    A pity the Lakonike don't exactly live up to their unit description, but at least they look badass as hell.

  5. #465

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Part of that "fix" is also that there shouldn't be as plentiful a supply of Classical Hoplites in Lakonike as other places in Greece either - their pool will reduce before the Agiad reform.
    Sorry Quintus, I don't really understand, what "fix" is this?

  6. #466

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aodh Mór Ó Néill View Post
    Sorry Quintus, I don't really understand, what "fix" is this?
    The Agiad reform is supposed to repair the manpower issue in Lakonike. But with the current pool setup, there isn't one. Classical Hoplites shouldn't be as readily available as they are elsewhere in Greece.

  7. #467

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The Agiad reform is supposed to repair the manpower issue in Lakonike. But with the current pool setup, there isn't one. Classical Hoplites shouldn't be as readily available as they are elsewhere in Greece.
    Oh ok, so this is something being implemented in the next release?

  8. #468

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aodh Mór Ó Néill View Post
    Oh ok, so this is something being implemented in the next release?
    Yep, it'll be in Release 2, simple change.

  9. #469

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Armour upgrades are +2.5 each, not +1. Standardised all those barely-clothed (never mind armoured) Celtic units at 1. The Massagetes Riders have gone up to 5 as well.
    I'm not sure if that's the case. In my long campaigns as well as custom battles, armor-upgraded units receive +1 to their armor as indicated by their unit card info. Is this description wrong, and that the unit receive +2.5 "under the hood"?

  10. #470
    Lusitanio's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoebopp View Post
    I'm not sure if that's the case. In my long campaigns as well as custom battles, armor-upgraded units receive +1 to their armor as indicated by their unit card info. Is this description wrong, and that the unit receive +2.5 "under the hood"?
    The game only displays +1 on each update but in practice the increase is 2.5.

  11. #471

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    The game only displays +1 on each update but in practice the increase is 2.5.
    OH MY LORD THAT CHANGES HOW I PERCEIVE UNITS' EFFECTIVENESSES

  12. #472

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Hol'up, y'all are telling me that units with two armor upgrades will have +5 armor by the time their second armor upgrade is in effect? Here are some units that become viciously overpowered after their full armor upgrades by this logic - you might want to consider reworking them.

    Numidian Nobles: 18 total defense. That's the same as Scythian Nobles.
    Gallic/Boii Noble Cavalry: 19 total defense. That's a step below Cataphracts!
    Galatian Noble Cavalry: 20 total defense. That's... the same as Cataphracts.
    Galatian Retainers: 27 total defense. That's a step below Hellenistic Royal Guard.

  13. #473

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Yeah, I had no idea that the armor upgrades were +2.5. That sounds broken, especially for already armored units. The visual aspect of the armor upgrades fit +1 just fine.

  14. #474

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoebopp View Post
    Galatian Retainers: 27 total defense. That's a step below Hellenistic Royal Guard.
    No wonder they've been doing so well in my late Pontos campaign.... They're probably my favorite heavy infantry unit right now.
    . .

  15. #475

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Well, a couple of observations...Javelin cavalry are just generally bad. It doesn't matter from what culture or where you recruit them, they just suck at skirmishing. It's not even the lackluster damage (if you put Numidian cavalry BEHIND roman horsemen and pepper them with their full payload of javelins, you can kill like 10 romans at best), it's the fact they're so "unagile". What I mean is that even if their normal galloping speed is good, their transitions from throwing javelins to moving are just a tad slow. This makes them very vulnerable to getting caught by a charge...which they're supposed to be able to regularly avoid! To make skirmisher javelin cavalry (or those who can fight as such besides having good melee skills) actually viable in their role, I have a couple of suggestions:

    First, make them capable of "fluid" motion. It's not their top speed, but their ability to go from 0 (standstill) to any sort of velocity that's important (basically acceleration). I might sound as if I'm talking of attributes the m2tw engine doesn't portray well, but players will get what I'm talking about if let's say you compare it to the differences in "feel" when directing xystophoroi or "heavy cavalry" (hetairoi, sarmatian armored lancers, etc.) in a charge cycle. The former turns very smoothly and can quickly form up while in motion after making a tight change in direction. The latter is oh so slightly awkward, better than cataphracts, but still prone to momentary standstills after turning. Javelin horsemen actually feel closer in usage (not equal though, of course they're still faster!) to the heavies while skirmishing. Also, the throwing animations for javelins on horse take way too long. Second, the devs could just greatly increase the total ammo they carry. Keep everything the same, but at least now they can do some sort of damage after quite a period of time (they'll never reach the effectiveness of horse archers, though). Third, and last, as well as the most controversial, increase the damage of javelins thrown on horseback. Something doesn't feel quite right when the momentum of a galloping horse has no influence on the power of the javelin thrown, such that guys on foot have the same damage stat as those on horse when looking at their javelins.

    On a completely different topic, what makes thorikatai epilektoi so special? So special that when most other infantry (including the thracian/dacian rhompaia/falx bearers!) have only 1 as their charging stat, these guys have 6!
    Last edited by Pooploop; April 23, 2021 at 12:33 AM.

  16. #476

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Falxmen and romphaia bearers have a very high charge, but the unit cards are bugged due to having missile weapons. What you see in the unit card is the "charge value" of the missile weapon they carry, not the melee one. Look at the EDU or the recruitment viewer to see the stats, ignore the unit cards.

    Thorakitai Epilektoi are the reformed version of hypaspistai, they're a royal guard hellenistic unit.
    Last edited by Hellenikon; April 23, 2021 at 02:37 AM.

  17. #477
    Marvzilla's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Yeah what Hellenikon said, theyre the cream of the crop, I think they actually dont have javelins in comparison to normal Thorakitai, which makes them actually more reliable. On that note, right clicking with precursor melee infantry seems to work better now. Before I just put them on auto fire, position them, let loose a volley or two if possible and then charged them in. Now they actually throw their javelins when told to, instead of slowly walking into melee when trying to use their precursor missiles. AI still has a problem with that though, constantly reloading in melee.

  18. #478

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Eburones cavalry no longer carry javelins. What they still have is Skirmish mode. Yikes.

  19. #479

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Komatai Epilektoi (Dacian Elite Skirmishers)

    Armor rating - 5

    Too much, perhaps?

    Not all men wear helmets and there's only one thorax. Description says that most of them wear greaves under their trousers, but that could be a leftover from EB1.

    For comparison, Skaplinai (Illyrian Elite Slinger-Axemen) are fully helmeted, have one more thorax-wearing model and at least one pair of greaves. Their armor rating is 4.

  20. #480

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Carthaginian Settler Infantry

    Armor rating - 4

    In my opinion, it's too low. They all have helmets, 3/5 have organic body armor and some have bronze greaves.

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