Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

[Rad]

Work will be resumed. Soon, I hope

[Camcolit]

I noticed some archer changes since playing last. I am curious though, Persian archers have an attack value of 5, while nomad archers have 7. Are the nomads using much better bows during this period?

[QuintusSertorius]

I noticed some archer changes since playing last. I am curious though, Persian archers have an attack value of 5, while nomad archers have 7. Are the nomads using much better bows during this period?

Yes, simply put.

[Camcolit]

Can you put it less simply?

[Camcolit]

Thessalian/Hetairoi's secondary weapon has an attack of 10 and AP. Isn't this a bit much? What are they using, kopis? Compare to Eastern cataphracts with an attack of 7 and AP, or Median cavalry with attack 9 and no AP. Carthaginian bodyguard cavalry also has 9 / no AP.

[Satapatiš]

This is a great thread, would love to see more input.

Galatian Colonists, despite having roughly 2/3rds of their models naked and the other 1/3 having the sense to wear chainmail, boast an armor value of 4. Maybe it should be reduced to 3?

Bosporan Horse Archers have a massive 12 sword attack. May I ask what the historical/archaeological basis was?

Unit mass needs some tweaking to make some units more effectively against cavalry as their description implies. Most notably are the two Iranian Archer-Spearmen variants. They wield spears, yes, but their pitiful mass of 0.8 means any cavalry charge will steamroller them. A huge buff to 1.0 would make them live up to their reputation. Thorakitai as well have an unusually low mass despite their armor and training. 1.05 makes them less resistant to cavalry charges than British Retainer Swordsmen (who themselves should have their mass reduced from 1.1 to .95 like all other sub-16 defense swordsmen). Perhaps 1.1 or even 1.15 would better reflect their status as professionals?

IMO mass 1.15 is what thorakitai should have. The Cohors Sociorum have this mass per soldier and it makes them actually capable of holding the line. I'm using them for comparison because they have pretty much the same gear as thorakitai.

[Camcolit]

Thorakitai Epilekoi have shield 6 but use the same shield as the ordinary Thorakitai which has shield 5.

[Grease]

Thorakitai Epilekoi have shield 6 but use the same shield as the ordinary Thorakitai which has shield 5.

Look at their model, their shields are way bigger, covering their body from feet to neck for some. I would increase their def-skill and armour by 1 : they have more agility than the Shield-bearers due to the shield design and seems to have better quality armor on the top despite lacking greaves. With 26 of total defence they can match the Shield-bearer as it was historicaly.

[Camcolit]

I was just looking at the recruitment viewer, should have waited until I saw the actual models.

'I would increase their def-skill and armour by 1'

Just looking at Epilekoi Hoplitai, they only have defense skill 8 compared to 12 for the thorakitai. Seems ok because the thorakitai are a more flexible and modern unit with slightly less armor and less mass but that is a pretty large difference. If the elite Thorakitai is made so clearly superior, I think Koinon Hellenon should get access to them and have their bodyguard units replaced with the elite thorakitai on late reform - they already use the ordinary version.

[(:Baktra:)]

I was just looking at the recruitment viewer, should have waited until I saw the actual models.

'I would increase their def-skill and armour by 1'

Just looking at Epilekoi Hoplitai, they only have defense skill 8 compared to 12 for the thorakitai. Seems ok because the thorakitai are a more flexible and modern unit with slightly less armor and less mass but that is a pretty large difference. If the elite Thorakitai is made so clearly superior, I think Koinon Hellenon should get access to them and have their bodyguard units replaced with the elite thorakitai on late reform - they already use the ordinary version.

The Thorakitai Epilekoi are still using a modified place holder. The actual model isnt finished yet.

Koinon Hellenon doesnt have access to them because there is no evidence for Koinon ever fielding soldiers of that sort.

[Camcolit]

Well the 'picked Thorakitai' are just elite Thorakitai right? What evidence is there for KH adopting Thorakitai but keeping all their elite units fighting as hoplites? I just find this intuitively dubious.

Thessalian/Hetairoi's secondary weapon has an attack of 10 and AP. Isn't this a bit much? What are they using, kopis? Compare to Eastern cataphracts with an attack of 7 and AP, or Median cavalry with attack 9 and no AP. Carthaginian bodyguard cavalry also has 9 / no AP.

The Acheamenid Iranian Heavy Cavalry also has this 10 AP secondary attack. Can anyone explain why? I don't see anything on their unit description to explain it. I know the unit description is not the be all and end all but this is an overwhelmingly lethal secondary weapon compared to most other cavalry including more modern units like cataphracts.

[Camcolit]

I never play Sueboz but noticed on the recruitment viewer that German bodyguard / heavy spearmen (recruitable?) have 12 morale, and 'unit will never rout'. What are these, T-1000s?

[Rad]

Let us start with the remade Gargokladioi - awesome job, btw.

The new Gargokladioi have an armor rating of 2, despite not having a single piece of armor between them. Half of them aren't even wearing tunics.

[realm56]

Lets add the Katusages to the list... these guys have 2 armour but most of them have exposed dingleberries.....3 armor post reform but most of them still have exposed abs....

[Rad]

The Katusages at least have some helmets to show. I think that the Gargokladioi issue comes from the fact that the unit models got updated (any previous armor pieces got removed), but the stats weren't.

[Marvzilla]

Lets add the Katusages to the list... these guys have 2 armour but most of them have exposed dingleberries.....3 armor post reform but most of them still have exposed abs....

Katusages post reform armor upgrade from 2 to 3 makes zero sense, same amount of helmets, a few more pants or shirts.

[Rad]

@realm56 Katusages' armor rating should be reviewed due to their armor upgrade. If the team is right and the armor upgrade gives an additional +2.5 armor instead of +1 armor, that would mean that Katusages have a post-reform armor rating of 4.5, giving them a higher armor rating than some better equipped units.

@Marvzilla Yeah, I don't think the ratio of helmets changes for the Katusages. Only the style of the helmets changes. I might have even mentioned it here some time ago.

[Marvzilla]

@realm56 Katusages' armor rating should be reviewed due to their armor upgrade. If the team is right and the armor upgrade gives an additional +2.5 armor instead of +1 armor, that would mean that Katusages have a post-reform armor rating of 4.5, giving them a higher armor rating than some better equipped units.

@Marvzilla Yeah, I don't think the ratio of helmets changes for the Katusages. Only the style of the helmets changes. I might have even mentioned it here some time ago.

Yeah, if I remember right no additonal armour, just variation. How do you like the Scordiscoi unit ? I think they look rad, but I am sad they dont use their swords.

[QuintusSertorius]

Armour upgrades are +2.5 each, not +1. Standardised all those barely-clothed (never mind armoured) Celtic units at 1. The Massagetes Riders have gone up to 5 as well.

[Rad]

How do you like the Scordiscoi unit ? I think they look rad, but I am sad they dont use their swords.

I like the variety in shields (shapes, bosses, decoration), sidearms (both sica and Celtic longswords) and clothing (there's a lot going on there)
Javelins could use a small improvement.
Don't be sad. There's enough Celtic swordsmen units in the area - Gallathraikes, Eastern Celtic raiders etc. What I would like to see is a Scordisci cavalry unit - if I remember correctly, quite a bit of cavalry equipment has been found in burials and depictions of horses and riders appear in coinage.

In any case, I'll continue to update the thread to flesh out the history and archaeology as much as I can.