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Thread: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

  1. #41

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    And how come evocati have those horned helmets then?

  2. #42

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Why are you folks assuming I am actually making a full unit concept? I don't have the time for that. I am trying to make a compromise starting point for all 3(or 4) periods, using what knowledge I have.
    Muscled cuirass? In existence, used by bodyguardish units
    Linothorax? Same
    Scale? Same - not particularly sure that it would fit the Camillians, though.

    All 3 forms of armor are present in Roman armies.

    Maille wouldn't fit in the Camillian era, and the Italian breastplates wouldn't be great for the Marian era, so those two can't do.
    Last edited by Rad; July 12, 2016 at 08:07 AM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Especially not when it includes fantasy nonsense like this:

    Creative Assembly would like a word. They'd like to discuss the definition of 'fantasy' unit. :p

  4. #44
    Cohors_Evocata's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by wermez View Post
    And how come evocati have those horned helmets then?
    They're cornicula, though the exact interpretation or depiction of those might be artistic license. Page 97 to 99 gives one interpretation of what those might have been.

    EDIT: addendum from the historian who concepted them:

    ]The question was asked earlier about the cornicula on the cohors evocata. We know they were awarded, and with greater frequency, in the Marian-Caesarian eras. We hear in sources of both individuals and whole units being granted decorations. Cornicula are depicted on legionaries' helmets on tombstones and in relief battle scenes from the Caesarian era, so it seems reasonable to conclude they were worn in battle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Why are you folks assuming I am actually making a full unit concept? I don't have the time for that. I am trying to make a compromise starting point for all 3(or 4) periods, using what knowledge I have.
    Muscled cuirass? In existence, used by bodyguardish units
    Linothorax? Same
    Scale? Same - not particularly sure that it would fit the Camillians, though.

    All 3 forms of armor are present in Roman armies.

    Maille wouldn't fit in the Camillian era, and the Italian breastplates wouldn't be great for the Marian era, so those two can't do.
    Nobody is assuming you're making a full concept (at least I'm not), but I was (in jest) asking for one, because a full concept is the most useful for unit creation, even though how detailed it should be can vary. For example, the starting point you set up mentions nothing about helmet types, footwear, clothing, weaponry, shields, horse types etc.

    I should mention that the concept for the Equites Consulares is already finished, so in the end it all matters little . It might also double as that for the Equites Extraordinarii, if it's decided to include them as a separate unit.
    Last edited by Cohors_Evocata; July 15, 2016 at 03:49 PM.
    I tend to edit my posts once or several times after writing and uploading them. Please keep this in mind when reading a recent post of mine. Also, should someone, for some unimaginable reason, wish to rep me, please add your username in the process, so I can at least know whom to be grateful towards.

    My thanks in advance.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Lances, parma equestris, Kopis, Xiphos.
    Helmets - ornamented types of: Montefortino, Boeotian, Italo-Corinthian, Attic, Phrygian.
    Greaves on all, or at least most soldiers.

    Clothing - that's where personal taste comes in, now does it? Not black - the color of mourning. Not dull colors because they could afford good stuff. Not purple.
    Clothing color is one of the most heavily debated things when it comes to the Roman every day life. The "safe" colors are red and white. Some folks also include blue.
    Personally, I am all for a wide spectre of bright colors and ornaments. Everyone wants to look nice and be noticed. Clothing shows wealth and status.

    Horses - the four legged kind
    Last edited by Rad; August 14, 2016 at 04:24 PM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Any news on barbarian faction army compositions?

  7. #47

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Any news on barbarian faction army compositions?
    Nothing yet, sorry Summer has been a little slow with everyone taking a vacation at one time or the other

  8. #48

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Was there a difference between the army compositions of the Nomadic Pahlava and the Pahlavan Empire?

    I decided to use 4x Pahlavan HA + 4x Dahae HA + 2x Dahae SC + 1 Cataphract + 2 FM for one stack. Once I've achieved the reforms, should I increase the number of cataphracts? Should I use infantry as garrison units only? When should I use the medium cavalry units like the Median Cavalry or the Iranian Cavalry?

  9. #49

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Love this guide as it is right up my alley as a player (most of the time). Sorry if I missed the answer to this question but are any further factions planned for this list?
    ~ Bobsy

  10. #50
    Cohors_Evocata's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckitz View Post
    Love this guide as it is right up my alley as a player (most of the time). Sorry if I missed the answer to this question but are any further factions planned for this list?
    ~ Bobsy
    We hope so, eventually.
    I tend to edit my posts once or several times after writing and uploading them. Please keep this in mind when reading a recent post of mine. Also, should someone, for some unimaginable reason, wish to rep me, please add your username in the process, so I can at least know whom to be grateful towards.

    My thanks in advance.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by wermez View Post
    And how come evocati have those horned helmets then?
    I've actually got a different theory.
    There's a statue of Moses in some museum somewhere*, and it was sculpted with horns. those did not represented mischief or the devil itself but the blessing of God from the heaven in the form of ray of lights. Light being fairly tough to sculpt (...) it was depicted as those "horns" that were supposed to fall upon him not emerged from his head.

    Since the evocati are reenlisted worthy soldiers, they were deemed chosen or privileged by the gods (both the old and the new hence, the horns.
    My two cents, maybe worth less.

    (*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_(Michelangelo)

  12. #52

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    I am really impressed by the historical information.

  13. #53

    Default Official Historical Army Compositions - Hayastan


    Early Hayastan Gund
    (Army of Armenia - early Yervanduni host)


    Hayastan’s style of warfare emphasises damage infliction through missile exchange. They field sizable contingents of long-distance missile troops and thus have a superior firepower to most other armies they encounter. Their infantry too, has a large amount of projectile-armed troops. The arms and armour of their earlier period footmen are typical of indigenous Anatolian cultures - they are mobile but overall lighter than the cream of their Greco-Macedonian counterparts. Armenians make up for it by fielding some of the best cavalry and proportion of the mounted troops in their armies is somewhat greater than in other sedentary societies. That said, the amount of horsemen Hayastan fields is no match for the nomadic hosts to their north. Hayastan’s key to success is a combination of mobility, firepower and a presence of solid mounted force.

    Historically, combined Hayastan Gund of this period amounted to some 40,000 footmen and 7,000-8,000 cavalry. It was composed of a large number of archers and slingers. Infantry was present in roughly the same measure and most of it carried javelins, although some missile-free spearmen are also featured. Yervanduni supplemented their armies by some mercenary contingents and had access to a range of local cavalrymen of excellent quality.

    Hayastan has a long history of fielding expeditionary forces, first in support of Persian conquest then in defence of the Achaemenid Empire. The crown prince led the Armenian contingent and they were one of the few peoples that had the expertise and resources to provide Persian forces with siege engines. After destruction of the Achaemenid rule, Yervanduni used their expeditionary force to advance the dynastic interests and assist their allies in Anatolia, as was the case with aiding Cappadocian potentates in their struggle against the Macedonians. Yervanduni thus occasionally meddled in affairs of the neighbouring states and provided armed assistance to their allies. Yervanduni expeditionary contingent could be as large as a halved version of overall strength of Hayastan Gund and would have a similar composition but on a smaller scale.

    Leadership – 1-2 units:
    FL and/or FH accompanied by a FM - Armenian Bodyguard (Tiknazor)

    Missile footmen – 7-8 units:
    3-4 units of Anatolian Archers (Kamandar i Kappodakiya)
    2-3 units of Eastern Slingers (Payadag i Falakhanan)
    2 units of Western Iranian Archer-Spearmen (Eranag Payadag)

    Other footmen – 7-8 units:
    2-3 units of Armenian Spearmen (Hai Nizagamartik)
    1-2 units Anatolian Spearmen (Nezagdar i Kappodakiya)
    1-2 units Anatolian Tribesmen (Arvadni i Kappodakiya)
    1-2 units of mercenaries including some of the below:
    Chaldian Pikemen (Khaldilae)
    North-Western Caucasian Infantry (Phęzęghashkha)
    Akkadian Heavy Infantry (Erin-mesh Uriki)
    Hellenistic Medium Infantry (Hemithorakitai Peltophoroi)
    Mercenary Hellenistic Hoplites (Misthophoroi Hoplitai)

    Horsemen - 3-4 units including some of the below:
    Armenian Horse-Archers (Netadzik Ayrudzi)
    Armenian Cataphracts (Aznvakan Aspet)
    Anatolian Light Cavalry (Mudunup i Kappodakiya)
    Anatolian Medium Cavalry (Aswar i Kappodakiya) or
    Iranian Medium Cavalry (Eranag Aswar)




    Imperial Hayastan Gund
    (Army of Armenia - post-imperial reform)


    Having expanded well beyond its homeland, armies of imperial Hayastan evolved to include a plethora of peoples, each bringing their native fighting styles and expertise. A great host of the King of Kings features a rich selection of new troop types but a trained eye can still discern presence of some of the traditional elements that made up Armenian armies of old. Cavalry thus still form an important arm in Hayastan’s arsenal and are now present in somewhat greater numbers. A considerable number of archers and slingers are still fielded, but their importance has rather declined and they are not as numerous as they used to be. The main change is a substantial increase in amount of melee footmen and an overall heaviness of the army. This shift was brought about by both reforming of the regional footmen and Armenia's expansionist thrust south. Taking over large areas formerly controlled by the Seleucid and Parthian empires, imperial Hayastan Gund features a wide selection of heavy melee infantry organised into phalanxes as well as the more flexible formations increasingly adopted by Hellenistic armies of later period. Even though King of Kings can now field a substantial contingent of miscellaneous mercenaries and Greco-Macedonian footmen, the backbone of his armed forces is still formed of the Armenian cavalry. Various allied leaders and sub-kings are also summoned and these beef up the army with the contingents of crack horsemen of their own.

    Historically, the average imperial Hayastan Gund totalled some 70,000-80,000 soldiers. In emergencies about the same amount could be raised in Greater Armenia and its environs.

    Leadership - 2-3 units:
    1 FL - Armenian Bodyguard (Tiknazor) + allied kings - 1-2 x Iranian Heavy Cavalry (Aswar i Khweshawandan)

    Missile footmen – 3 - 4 units:
    Eastern Slingers (Payadag i Falakhanan)
    Anatolian Archers (Kamandar i Kappodakiya)
    Western Iranian Archer-Spearmen (Eranag Payadag)
    Persian Archers (Kamandar i Pars)

    Other footmen – 10 - 11 units:
    Armenian Royal Guard (Dranik Gund)
    Galatianised Swordsmen (Machairophoroi kata Galaton)
    Galatianised Spearmen (Doryphoroi kata Galaton)
    Mercenary Hellenistic Phalanx (Misthophoroi Phalangitai)
    Hellenistic Native Phalanx (Pantodapoi Phalangitai)
    Armenian Spearmen (Hai Nizagamartik)
    Chaldian Pikemen (Khaldilae)
    Kartvelni Mehomni (Kartvelian Warriors)
    North-Western Caucasian Infantry (Phęzęghashkha)
    Akkadian Heavy Infantry (Erin-mesh Uriki)
    Northern Arabian Thureophoroi (Arabes Thureophoroi)
    Mercenary Hellenistic Hoplites (Misthophoroi Hoplitai)
    Hellenistic Heavy Spearmen (Thorakitai)

    Horsemen – 4 - 5 units:
    Iranian Medium Cavalry (Eranag Aswar)
    Armenian Horse-Archers (Netadzik Ayrudzi)
    Median Cavalry (Aswar i Mad)
    Caucasian Lancers (Hayots Ayrudzi)
    1-2 Armenian Cataphracts (Aznvakan Aspet)


    N.B. Armenians aside, some units may be interchanged for other regionals, i.e. Anatolians, Iranians, Arabs... of similar class.
    Last edited by Sarkiss; March 19, 2018 at 01:50 AM. Reason: posts merged, new units added

  14. #54
    Nerva's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Nice addition Sarkiss

    Do you like Minecraft? Do you like diplomacy games? Join TWC's Community Minecraft server:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...1649-Minecraft

  15. #55

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    updated and merged posts here
    Last edited by Sarkiss; March 17, 2018 at 01:21 PM. Reason: post merged

  16. #56

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Thank you Sarkiss!

  17. #57

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    I have a question regarding, where the Extraordinarii should be placed. I've been putting them behind the Triarii as a special reserve shock unit, With the roman manipules in the centre, supported by Allies on the sides.

    Also should the Etruscans be placed next to the Triarii, since they are also phalanx and the third line is supposed to be the fallback.

  18. #58
    Marku's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Thank you Sarkiss for your army list

    "It's not always possible to do what we want to do, but it's important to believe in something before you actually do it"

  19. #59

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Updated first post with plenty of new Army compositions! Special thanks to Arjos and Sarkiss for their information on the subject.

    http://docdro.id/4rh521w
    Last edited by Anubis88; February 10, 2017 at 07:55 AM.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Official Historical Army Compositions for 2.2

    Great work! Love it!
    I'm fascinated by the diversity of yet unmade/unpreviewed steppe units and the peoples they might represent, I hope we get some of these soon
    Last edited by LusitanianWolf; February 11, 2017 at 08:06 AM.

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