Dragonstone issue

[Pontifex Maximus]

Facts:

1. Aerys claimed income from Dragonstone for the entire game as well as income from King's Landing.

2. He used this income in a "mixed" sense - that is, spending all the income he received from two provinces on a single province

3. This violated the "one province rule" in two senses: Giving yourself two provinces and using the income from both to improve a single province.

4. The "one province rule" was erroneously not included in the rules at the start of the game, although the only player who acted in this way was skylord (in claiming income from two provinces for the same character)

5. moderator attempts to address this issue have been insufficient/ in a stalemate for over a week.

6. Three possible solutions have been proposed:
A. Assess the entire income claimed from Dragonstone for the entire game as royal debt
B. Allow players to collect 3x unmodified land income to make up for the moderator error
C. Do nothing

Additional notes:

1. I am not trying to punish Skylord here at all. This is all for game balance. Punishment in this game isn't removing income, punishment is being forum banned for breaking rules. He didn't do anythign wrong per se, but I would call it exploiting a loophole and rather unsportsmanlike. But that is a matter of personal opinion and doesn't really factor in here.

2. Please select from the list.

[Pyrrhus the Molossian]

Voting A.


The most reasonable solution and makes sense in a roleplay sense.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I'll vote 2,1.

[The Mad Skylord]

Actually, most of the dragonstone cash went to several factors.

Military recruitment
Upkeep
Levy raising
Retainer hiring

Dragonstone has 40k income, during the time I had it I was paying 30k for troops and retainers, which eventually went up to 35k.

[ficenzi]

My preference: 1 > 2 > 3

[Poach]

Being that Ponti had no problems with ignoring the mod poll on this one and no problems taxing Cider Hall at 50%, I'm assuming he'll have no objection to me inviting Skylord to tax Dragonstone at 50% until any money he loses from this farce is recouped?

Skylord did nothing wrong: he gained everything he gained by legitimate, legal means. As such, the money he has is fair and within the rules of the game. Though Ponti keeps claiming he doesn't want to punish Skylord it's plainly obvious that he does: a player is having something taken off of him that he gained by following the rules. Under no definition of the word "punishment" can you exclude this scenario.

He tried to get the mods to vote on punishing him, and they didn't. So he's ignoring that and is trying to get the community to do it, despite the mods being the ones that are supposed to devise and implement any punishment warranted. That's the entire point of moderators. This is disrespectful and dismissive, and it insults me greatly.

I've offered compromises that don't punish Skylord for doing nothing wrong and he hasn't even put them in the poll. The agenda is clear: Skylord.

This entire affair can be summed up as Ponti (and apparently the rest of you) being upset that Skylord gained a legitimate advantage and now you want to take it off of him for no reason other than you don't like that he did it. This is spiteful in the extreme and very disappointing.

[Zeus Almighty]

I can see the argument of "In fairness" but I will say this, at the very least, IC it makes sense for him to receive both I suppose. Now that being said, that doesn't help our little game here, but that's what I think. I do not think Ponti is being disrespectful of course Poach, I think it's a matter of strong opinion. I do feel like this is more mod and purple text material but I suppose we all have some voice. Mayhap he just didn't feel an adequate determination (either yay or nay) had been reached so he decided to go a little more...public.

[Pontifex Maximus]

How many times do I have to say that I'm not trying to " skylord"

The mod poll was at a stalemate for a week Nobody else but Poach and I decided to vote. You'll notice that is still the case. Therefore, the player community will serve as a tie breaker and well, I think we have our verdict. The claimed dragonstone income must be assessed as debt.

[Poach]

Have fun enforcing it because all this poll shows is the mods don't have any authority whatsoever.

[Pontifex Maximus]

You know very well that I'm not going to try to enforce something that a majority of the mods don't agree with. I really dont appreciate you making me out to be some sort of spiteful person trying to punish players. I don't think I deserve that at all. I've reached the " it" point with this. I'm incredibly disappointed at the outcome not only because I think it's bad for the game but because you felt the need to drag me through the mud at every turn. As you can see, an overwhelming majority of players are unhappy about the outcome here. One would think that in a game where the happiness of players to continue on is of high importance more attention would be paid to that in trying to reach a compromise instead of just refusing to do anything. If it was moderation's fault for the rule oversight in the first place then we're doubly at fault for not addressing the problems caused by our negligence in the first place. And I can't imagine why anyone would prefer that outcome. Maybe laziness.

[Poach]

I've repeatedly offered to take any punishment myself, you didn't even put it in the poll as an option. I don't agree any punishment for anyone is warranted, but if you're hellbent on making someone pay for this, it should be the mods. This debate also wasn't even in public for anyone to be dragged through the mud until you brought it into this thread.

[ficenzi]

Because the point is not in taking away money from you, Poach, but from Skylord who had/has an unfair advantage.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Because the point is not in taking away money from you, Poach, but from Skylord who had/has an unfair advantage.

exactly...

[Poach]

There's nothing unfair about it. The very premise is wrong. He followed the rules and did so openly. Every penny he has is fair and legitimate.

[ficenzi]

It's a loophole in the rules. That doesnt mean its okay. Five other players could have granted their non hereditaries to themselves but they didnt.

[Pontifex Maximus]

So just because the one province rule was left out of the current ruleset, that makes all of it ok in your book? Despite the fact nobody else did it, that rule is ingrained in everyone who has played this game as long as him, and it just simply smacks of unfairness in the first place? That's all ok with you just because due to a clerical oversight it wasn't in the rules?

[Poach]

Ficenzi: It's not a loophole at all. We outright removed the rule preventing it: in what world is allowing 2+ provinces per character a loophole if there's no rule whatsoever about it? In what world does anyone reasonably regard it as a loophole when we had a rule, then told everyone "it's not a rule any more guys, have 2+ provinces if you want to."

Ponti: No, which is why we fixed it. What's not ok with me is retroactively applying the rule to people's detriment. You're punishing Skylord for following the rules.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Oh? Where did we publicly vote/announce to get rid of the rule?

[Poach]

Previous game. I don't actually remember it at all, but it wasn't in the rules for this game at all, so it wasn't a rule, so Skylord got his money fairly, so you wanting to take it amounts to a punishment.

[Pontifex Maximus]

the rules were changed for a nuanced setting that failed magnificently. HB messed up by not having the rules for normal games right when he did the rules for this game. Despite that, everyone assumed the rule would be in effect since were were back to 'business as usual' someone exploited a loophole, an oversight, and did what we have considered to be bad form for years now. Claimed two incomes for one character. nobody else did, but he did. Now you think we shouldn't take this income back but we also shouldn't fix the problem by allowing players to claim extra income. Nothing you have proposed has been a fix for the problem. The problem is that one character got to claim essentially double income. The way to fix that is either to take that income away of level the playing field by allowing others to collect extra income. Somehow, in your mind, either of these solutions is punishing skylord.

I do not comprehend your reasoning at all.