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Thread: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

  1. #1

    Default Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    What does everyone think of the magical ladders during an assault? What is the point of siege towers if everyone has an unlimited supply of ladders? I find the ladders a bigger problem than the fact we can't fight in the entire city anymore. And what is the reasoning behind this decision anyway?

    ps. Why, when attacking units are routing, do they also run further into the city? I know they can leave the battlefield that way but why?...

  2. #2

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    The ladders are far inferior to the towers. I hardly ever use them.

    I think it is kind of weird how they magically appear. I think the only real alternative is to have players decide before the battle starts whether they have them or not. The system just simplifies this by just giving everyone the ladder but doesn't bother to show it unless they actually try and use it.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stangler View Post
    The ladders are far inferior to the towers. I hardly ever use them.

    I think it is kind of weird how they magically appear. I think the only real alternative is to have players decide before the battle starts whether they have them or not. The system just simplifies this by just giving everyone the ladder but doesn't bother to show it unless they actually try and use it.
    From my experience neither a siege tower nor a unit with magical ladders will reach the wall if you focus a tower on it. I don't use the ladders either, but the AI does. I find it a very poor decision to implement.

  4. #4
    Yerevan's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalDonutWar View Post
    ps. Why, when attacking units are routing, do they also run further into the city? I know they can leave the battlefield that way but why?...
    They leave through the dressing room, like any actor is supposed to.
    " Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! "

  5. #5

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalDonutWar View Post
    From my experience neither a siege tower nor a unit with magical ladders will reach the wall if you focus a tower on it. I don't use the ladders either, but the AI does. I find it a very poor decision to implement.
    It is just a graphical issue. Not a strategic one.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stangler View Post
    It is just a graphical issue. Not a strategic one.
    I disagree. Every unit can get on the wall at any time, no problem. What was wrong with the system in Attila, Medieval II, Rome I and Rome 2 where you had to build ladders first and you give them to certain units? That is much more realistic and required more strategic thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerevan View Post
    They leave through the dressing room, like any actor is supposed to.
    That explains a lot

  7. #7

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalDonutWar View Post
    I disagree. Every unit can get on the wall at any time, no problem. What was wrong with the system in Attila, Medieval II, Rome I and Rome 2 where you had to build ladders first and you give them to certain units? That is much more realistic and required more strategic thinking.


    That explains a lot
    It doesn't really involve any meaningful amount of strategic thinking and just slows the game down for really no reason.

  8. #8
    SPARTAN VI's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Given a choice, I would've opted for no insta-ladders. I'm fine with it being actually represented with physical siege equipment like with R2TW/Attila, it could even be a 0 turn construction. I just don't like the idea of scaling walls without constructing siege equipment, period. It's quite enough that the gates are vulnerable to standard infantry weapons.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    To help the AI actually attack you somewhat competently. Thats it, really it is. Every unit having ladders is to allow the AI not to get hung up just standing there waiting for space to clear up from a siege tower or wait for the ram to go down. That reason is for all the design choices in sieges. Its why you only defend a portion of the wall during the assault itself, because the AI could not siege effectively. They cannot seem to fix this, so they did a designed work around.

    As for enemies retreating into the city, most likely so that they dont get hung up on the gate like in previous total war games. Id like to point out that ladders while magic, are terribly ineffective, it takes forever to get a unit up on the walls. By the time the unit is halfway up there your forces from your siege towers will most likely clear the walls, or the gate will be down.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Ladders are pretty weak assault option, which is good because of how CA make those fort towers hit hard. Many of your siege towers just don't make it to the walls. When they get there, they are really good. Entire unit will be fast on the wall, making space for more men to come and join the fight. When you are using ladders, defenders are capable of severly damaging attackers who climb very slow. I checked efficiency in my Chaos campaing, and i got about 3-4 time more losses with units that used ladders and I was comparing two units of Chaos Warriors. I'm not getting insulted with those "pocket ladders" just because it shouldn't be too hard for attacker to craft them fast. I'm really more annoyed about "magical transport ships".

  11. #11

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalDonutWar View Post
    I disagree. Every unit can get on the wall at any time, no problem. What was wrong with the system in Attila, Medieval II, Rome I and Rome 2 where you had to build ladders first and you give them to certain units? That is much more realistic and required more strategic thinking.


    That explains a lot
    They've had magic ladders since Shogun 2...

    It's to help the AI navigate during sieges, they were pants on head retarded when they had to build and use their own siege equipment.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    I actually like the warhammmer sieges more than in any other TW game, especially if you have to take wall by force fast. No more endless running through empty streets or seeing AI standing on its head in a corner. The ladders help alot in making them enjoyable imo. M2TW sieges were terrible compared to this not to mention Rome 2.

  13. #13
    Humble Warrior's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalDonutWar View Post
    What does everyone think of the magical ladders during an assault? What is the point of siege towers if everyone has an unlimited supply of ladders? I find the ladders a bigger problem than the fact we can't fight in the entire city anymore. And what is the reasoning behind this decision anyway?

    ps. Why, when attacking units are routing, do they also run further into the city? I know they can leave the battlefield that way but why?...
    The same question has been asked many times before in other TWs.

    It`s basically the same climbing ropes used in Empire and torches used in Rome 2 because they couldn`t make sieges work in that either, except this time they aren`t even really bothering with excuses any more.

    In MTW2 the enemy carried ladders onto the battlefield and put them up if they could.

    I wonder if the day will ever return when siege weapons are used like they were in MTW2?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Humble Warrior View Post
    I wonder if the day will ever return when siege weapons are used like they were in MTW2?
    I sure hope not, given that MTW2s sieges were flat-out worse than thopse of Shogun 2 or this game unless looked upon with very, very thick rose-tinted glasses.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Why?

    Shogun 2 and FOTS had similar things but nobody ever complained about it because the AI had other methods to do it.

    Just finished a campaign as VH Empire and this is what I found after fighting several siege battles.

    The AI ALWAYS takes a few turns, maybe 5-6, before actually attacking even if it HAS artillery. By that point it'll have maybe 6-8 towers plus 2 rams on the field. The thing with the towers is that those are the first things it attacks and it has to focus fire at them so if 6 are on the field maybe 3 might get to the wall which is MORE than enough to get the ball rolling as the AI starts pouring units into those towers. Those who's towers are destroyed they go for ladders but suffer heavily for it.

    Then you got the rams but I've never seen them succeed.

    The thing is, the AI actually uses all possible siege equipments and will start with a good amount.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    It doesn't bother me at all. Especially with the Vampire Counts and getting those derpy skeletons to march up the ladders. What does bug me is that it seems I can't assault the settlement until I've built some siege engines. I wouldn't mind rushing a city with a small garrison with the ladders only.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    you can rush cities just blow the walls

  18. #18

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    If something surprises me it's the inability to attack the city without having the siege equipment (which is surprising but good - I didn't like how there were no long sieges in Shogun 2). Doesn't make much sense when I have monsters capable of breaking down the gate and units with ladders who can capture the wall. I don't have problem with magical ladders as such.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    Magical ladders are fine because:
    a) building ladders is easy and quick for any bored soldier
    b) a full wall assault with as many troops as possible is the most logical action
    c) the development effort of giving all the units ladder carrying animations was hopefully used for something more useful

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalDonutWar View Post
    ps. Why, when attacking units are routing, do they also run further into the city? I know they can leave the battlefield that way but why?...
    It's not necessarily the most logical thing but I guess it's there to avoid path-finding issues when thousands of units try to squeeze through a narrow passage. In previous TW-games that would often completely bog down the CPU and it also often looked pretty ridiculous.

  20. #20
    Vanders's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Lets remove the magical ladders shall we?

    It really annoys me just like other workarounds annoyed me in previous games. It's been seven years and they still have yet to figure it out without compromise. At least have the ladders sitting there in game ready to be picked up or put down rather than coming out of their arses.

    What annoys me more is the way the units just warp back onto the ground on the other side instead of going through a tower to get down. Jarring to watch.

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