Bring back the hastati/principes

[Quintillius]

As you guys know we can only fight with the so-called 'Polybian Cohorts'. There are no hastati or principes ingame.
The Triarii are still present however.

Let's a read the unit description to find out the reason behind this developer's decision:

The pressures of invasion by Carthage and the need for a larger, more ominous
looking front to the enemy led the Romans to gradually shift their tactics when
it came to troop dispersment. Although records are sparse, some accounts report that
the old 'Hastati' and 'Principe' manipules were merged nearly into one unit, called for the
first time a 'cohort'. These men fight and look just like the Principes of the past, but
their numbers are greater, and you cannot tell 'Hastati' from 'Principe'. It could well be
that the younger men fought more bravely and better with the more experienced soldiers at
their sides. Used mainly to counter Hannibal and his forces in Italy, it's evident that
after the 2nd Punic War Roman military tactics were never the same. This unit fights with
a thrown 'pilum' released at the enemy in a powerful volley, and then engages with the Roman
'Gladius', a short sword that is very useful in the Legionary style of fighting.

This states that the 'old' Triplex Acies system has been dismissed in favour of new tactics.
But this is a highly controversial statement. Even the developer of the mod, dvk901, attenuates
his reasons concerning the choice for the cohorts system:

Well, let's just say it is a 'heavily interpreted conclusion' based on what Polybius said about the Battle of Cannae (the use of cohorts vs. maniples), and the known fact that the formation was used in Spain during the 2nd Punic War.

The fact is that the Hastati and Principe ARE both present (if you click on them during battle, they will identify themselves as one or the other randomly). It's just the formation that is cohort based. Polybius mentions that this was done to present a more unified front to the enemy (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting) at Cannae...presumably to frighten or bother the Carthaginians more. Obviously, that didn't work out too well for Rome at that time. But Scipio used it in Spain to advantage. So I\we admit there is little evidence concerning this....then again, there is little against it as well. The 2nd Punic War was a time of military transition for the Romans, that much is known for sure.

Who loves to fight with true Romans and true Roman tactics; the Triplex Acies; that is, in three ranks, with the hastati in the first rank (that nearest the enemy), the principes in the second rank, and the veteran triarii in the third and final rank as barrier troops, or sometimes even further back as a strategic reserve. When in danger of imminent defeat, the first and then second lines, the Hastati and Principes, ordinarily fell back on the Triarii to reform the line to allow for either a counter-attack or an orderly withdrawal. Because falling back on the Triarii was an act of desperation, to mention "falling on the Triarii" ("ad triarios rediisse") became a common Roman phrase indicating one to be in a desperate situation.
Imagine to deploy hastati in the first ranks, principes in second and triarii in third rank. Imagine that the hastati units are exhausted and need
to be brought back behind the principes. Imagine that wild and ferocious barbarians with great axes break through the second lines. Don't you
hear that general shouting "Ad triarios rediisse!"? Imagine such management of formations and movements in battle. The true Roman feeling of order.

Still we have to live with the team's decision. We have to use cohorts to face the enemy with one single line, barely justified with historical
sources. Rome 2 though makes you able to deploy your army according to the Triplex Acies which in this case goes deeper than RS.

Give me a final time to bring up a reason to make the developers return on their decision. For the sake of gameplay let the player himself choose.
If he doesn't want such micro-management, let hem deploy principes and hastati together in one single line. But let the oldies
shout during the heat of heat "AD TRIARIOS REDIISSEEEEE!"

[Alavaria]

Rome 2 though makes you able to deploy your army according to the Triplex Acies which in this case goes deeper than RS.

Well I do remember the old original vanilla RTW where you naturally had some sort of "reform" from nearly 100% Hastati to nearly 100% Principes armies, ah good times. Never really had that many Triarii in those days, so far up the tech tree that you just ended up getting the magical legionaries from Marius.

If he doesn't want such micro-management, let hem deploy principes and hastati together in one single line. But let the oldies
shout during the heat of heat "AD TRIARIOS REDIISSEEEEE!"

Triarii are pretty good at guarding the flanks of phalanx, which they should be given how much (far too much) they cost. Or the cohorts for that matter, you can get pretty decent swordsmen/spearmen for so much cheaper elsewhere.


All said, it does get a bit boring just seeing carpets of mail armor everywhere after killing Roman stacks, the AI really makes fairly samey armies as (I think, anyway) with all its cash the best units are the cohorts. At least The Silvershield Empire (TSE) has a bunch of Xshield or RoyalY units which are different.

The fact is that the Hastati and Principe ARE both present (if you click on them during battle, they will identify themselves as one or the other randomly).

Now this does amuse me (I probably didn't pay attention while playing Rome as I transitioned naturally to various other units, heh). The Thureophoroi constantly identify themselves as "(heavy) peltasts" while the Thorakitai are "(armored) hoplites".

[dvk901]

As you guys know we can only fight with the so-called 'Polybian Cohorts'. There are no hastati or principes ingame.
The Triarii are still present however.
Let's a read the unit description to find out the reason behind this developer's decision:

This states that the 'old' Triplex Acies system has been dismissed in favour of new tactics.
But this is a highly controversial statement. Even the developer of the mod, dvk901, attenuates
his reasons concerning the choice for the cohorts system:

Who loves to fight with true Romans and true Roman tactics; the Triplex Acies; that is, in three ranks, with the hastati in the first rank (that nearest the enemy), the principes in the second rank, and the veteran triarii in the third and final rank as barrier troops, or sometimes even further back as a strategic reserve. When in danger of imminent defeat, the first and then second lines, the Hastati and Principes, ordinarily fell back on the Triarii to reform the line to allow for either a counter-attack or an orderly withdrawal. Because falling back on the Triarii was an act of desperation, to mention "falling on the Triarii" ("ad triarios rediisse") became a common Roman phrase indicating one to be in a desperate situation.
Imagine to deploy hastati in the first ranks, principes in second and triarii in third rank. Imagine that the hastati units are exhausted and need
to be brought back behind the principes. Imagine that wild and ferocious barbarians with great axes break through the second lines. Don't you
hear that general shouting "Ad triarios rediisse!"? Imagine such management of formations and movements in battle. The true Roman feeling of order.

Still we have to live with the team's decision. We have to use cohorts to face the enemy with one single line, barely justified with historical
sources. Rome 2 though makes you able to deploy your army according to the Triplex Acies which in this case goes deeper than RS.

Give me a final time to bring up a reason to make the developers return on their decision. For the sake of gameplay let the player himself choose.
If he doesn't want such micro-management, let hem deploy principes and hastati together in one single line. But let the oldies
shout during the heat of heat "AD TRIARIOS REDIISSEEEEE!"

Although I grant the evidence is sparse...still, it was there. And, we used it to justify the decision to eliminate the Hastati......but, there was another reason that speaks to Alavaria's love of hating the Romans......we used (at the time of RS's first release), every single DMB and EDU slot so that we could add all those nasty Greeks and smelly Barbs and Easterners.

However, since the original release, we decided that both of the Praetorian First Cohorts were not realistic, and they were removed from recruitment. So there 'might' be a way to put them back in, I'd have to look at DMB to see if it's even possible.

Well I do remember the old original vanilla RTW where you naturally had some sort of "reform" from nearly 100% Hastati to nearly 100% Principes armies, ah good times. Never really had that many Triarii in those days, so far up the tech tree that you just ended up getting the magical legionaries from Marius.


Triarii are pretty good at guarding the flanks of phalanx, which they should be given how much (far too much) they cost. Or the cohorts for that matter, you can get pretty decent swordsmen/spearmen for so much cheaper elsewhere.


All said, it does get a bit boring just seeing carpets of mail armor everywhere after killing Roman stacks, the AI really makes fairly samey armies as (I think, anyway) with all its cash the best units are the cohorts. At least The Silvershield Empire (TSE) has a bunch of Xshield or RoyalY units which are different.


Now this does amuse me (I probably didn't pay attention while playing Rome as I transitioned naturally to various other units, heh). The Thureophoroi constantly identify themselves as "(heavy) peltasts" while the Thorakitai are "(armored) hoplites".

The limited amount of unit voices included with RTW was a problem. Florin80 worked on the sound files and did the best he could to match 'something' to a unit...but as you point out, some of the voices one might find amusing. We never had anyone on the team willing to do them, so there you have it.

[Alavaria]

Although I grant the evidence is sparse...still, it was there. And, we used it to justify the decision to eliminate the Hastati......but, there was another reason that speaks to Alavaria's love of hating the Romans......we used (at the time of RS's first release), every single DMB and EDU slot so that we could add all those nasty Greeks and smelly Barbs and Easterners.

However, since the original release, we decided that both of the Praetorian First Cohorts were not realistic, and they were removed from recruitment. So there 'might' be a way to put them back in, I'd have to look at DMB to see if it's even possible.

Yeah after doubling up with mercenary_unit in order to get all the cohorts and stuff in. It was very impressive how thorough that was.

I am actually somewhat amused at the nearly identical units of Thureophoroi, Aetolian Thureophoroi, Pontic Thureophoroi, Seleucid Thureophoroi, Spartan Thureophoroi etc etc... though the Scythian Thureophoroi is really an expensive spear-using heavy peltast if I remember right (it's weaker and more expensive than the basic ones, but has 6 javelins not 2 and is not pre-charge)

[Quintillius]

You should add a poll to this topic to check the community's opinion.
I would love to see the hastati and principes back in the field. Perhaps someone can make a submod for this?


(http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=1#post3921482)

*.*

[ur-Lord Tedric]

I also took this up with the team - having done extensive research myself - but mainly due to the description.

The main point, however, is that the Hastati & Principes are essentially exactly the same troop type; especially down to weapons, training and usage. They are, indeed inter-changeable.

The main evidence, forgetting, I firmly believe, these rather spurious interpretations of the appearance of 'cohorts' (for which, in the main, one must check the date of the reference, but also with knowledge that the word was always a factor), can be gained from a good read of Polybius (and hence the name).

Absolutely nothing stops the usage of the triplex acies. The re-introduction of a separate unit would result in yet another set of results of players not recruiting the armies they ought to be enjoying.

What we could discuss is changing the wording of the description.