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Thread: What's wrong with French morale?

  1. #1

    Default What's wrong with French morale?

    Play my coalition campaign as Prussia...ambush some French army that has NO GENERAL...They never broke...I lost...checked their morale...THEIR LINE HAD 17 MORALE WHILE MINE HAD 6 !!! WTF HOW AM I SUPPOSE TO BEAT THIS !!!!

    NO GENERAL TO BOOST THEIR MORALE
    ABOUT 3 TURN INTO THE GAME
    ARE ALL FRENCH AN ELITE SUPERMAN FLYING ACROSS THE SEVEN SEA ?

    ANYONE KNOW WHAT CAUSE THIS ???

    mod I use:

    bran campaign ai
    aum
    chaos battle (?)

    All of which shouldn't interfere with the morale value at all.....so WHAT IS GOING ON ????

  2. #2

    Default Re: WTF IS WRONG WITH FRENCH MORALE

    Napoleon is both a general and Emperor with the same attributes and ancillaries, so his morale boost is given to the entire army.

  3. #3

    Default Re: WTF IS WRONG WITH FRENCH MORALE

    Oh, I see. Still, aren't there anyone who think this is a bit too much ?

  4. #4

    Default Re: WTF IS WRONG WITH FRENCH MORALE

    The French are chanceless without a good morale boost. They have to fight most of Europe. As Prussia, you have failed massively, if you're at war after 3 turns. Woo the French in the beginning. Make trade deals. Build your economy, and then your Army. If you can manage to keep peace for a year, you will be a bit more prepared.

  5. #5
    P.S.'s Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    Reminds me of the time I fought a losing battle against Napoleon personally with his Old Guard in.
    My Prussian Musketeers, 4 units, shot them from different angles, from the side and even the back, had the high ground and reduced the guard to 20 people. Then the guard started to waver and rout. With 12 men left. And then his reinforcements rolled in and unleashed hell onto my depleted troops. At least they would have, but I ordered a tactical retreat.
    And this all was in vanilla.
    So yeah, their morale is too damn high!

  6. #6
    Bran Mac Born's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    Play battles and campaign on Normal-CA has hard coded boosts in battles.

  7. #7

    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    To be fair, by Clausewitz records he did coment on how Napoleon's soldiers didn't cower at all under artillery fire that would have very easily routed any normal unit, even if well drilled
    It's not by chance that Clausewitz talks about anihilating the enemy while Sun Tzu about routing them (or at least routing part of the unit)

    Quote Originally Posted by tonmai2541 View Post
    Oh, I see. Still, aren't there anyone who think this is a bit too much ?
    Many of them were Fanatics of the Revolution and could end up having meteoric promotions in status and power should they be brave enough. Many Napoleon higher Officers and Marshals were surprisingly young and of commoner background.

    Compare this to the Monarchy armies where even the best Officer would be stuck as a low ranking Officer forever and ever no matter how well he fought/strategized in case he wasn't a noble

    Prussian army noticed this to be a cause in differencial of morale, and was forced to increased meritocracy of the army disresgarding the Nobility titles, this allowed renewed morale for the Prussian soldiers and Officers. Still required to swallow a good amount of pride.

    Austrian Empire (HRE) failed to do this, and was defeated and dissolved.
    Last edited by fkizz; August 21, 2016 at 05:20 PM. Reason: added "in case he wasn't a noble"
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  8. #8

    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    Canister shot will be your friend.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    Quote Originally Posted by P.S. View Post
    Reminds me of the time I fought a losing battle against Napoleon personally with his Old Guard in.
    My Prussian Musketeers, 4 units, shot them from different angles, from the side and even the back, had the high ground and reduced the guard to 20 people. Then the guard started to waver and rout. With 12 men left. And then his reinforcements rolled in and unleashed hell onto my depleted troops. At least they would have, but I ordered a tactical retreat.
    And this all was in vanilla.
    So yeah, their morale is too damn high!
    Old Guard never broke, so id say their morale in the game is too low...

    and regarding overall french morale, NTW happens in Napoleon's glory years 1805-1812.. at that time, Grandee Armee was considered the best fighting force in the world.

  10. #10

    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    If you read about that period, the French "army" were volunteers and wanted to fight, so their morale was high! The Prussians, Russians, and Austrians were conscripts and prisoners, so their moral was lower. This is one of the reasons that the French Army could march so quickly and was able to split their commands and reform. The "coalition" forces didn't trust their armies to split into smaller units for forced marches. Only when they had motivate Generals like Bluecher, etc did they work well as a fighting force. Later when Nationalistic pride took hold is when the pride in the military became the modern force to recon with. So canister and search numbers are your friends -- remember to use Cavalry to flank and kill all those frenchies....

  11. #11
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    You do know that it was the French who "invented" modern conscription? With the "levée en masse" decided 23rd February 1793?
    The French army went from 200 000 men in February 1793 to 804 000 in December 1793.

    That's the other factions who used professional armies completed with volunteer (landwher for Prussia, Fencible for Britain...).

  12. #12
    Samittaja's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    I assume the reason for the high morale is indeed to provide the player with a sense of challenge. As Napoleon was not an easy foe, the French are made to feel more challenging. However, I would have preferred the challenge rising from genuinely good AI rather than unit stats.


    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    Old Guard never broke, so id say their morale in the game is too low...
    I don't want to be nitpicky, but Old Guard broke at the battle of Waterloo, destroying the morale of the entire French army. Though it was the only time the grognards lost a fight, so your comment isn't too far from the truth.

  13. #13

    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    Nope. That was not Old Guard, but Middle Guard. Old Guard kept fighting till the end, covered the retreat, faced multiple attacks from English cavalry, and fought through them into safety.





    Its similar BS as in WW2 every german tank was called Tiger, so at Waterloo whole Imperial Guard was for them the Old Guard...

    http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Im...t_Waterloo.htm
    Last edited by JaM; March 15, 2017 at 01:13 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    Quote Originally Posted by Samittaja View Post
    I don't want to be nitpicky, but Old Guard broke at the battle of Waterloo, destroying the morale of the entire French army. Though it was the only time the grognards lost a fight, so your comment isn't too far from the truth.
    Sorry for entering the conversation so abruptly, but this is just wrong. Like Jam said it was Middle Guard and even then they broke only when they were showered with canister shots and the Dutch threw all they had in their hands at that moment at them. And the british center was fleeing by the way.
    The Old Guard was in squares at the end of Waterloo and when british cavalry was sent to pursue they reluctantly did because they were freaking scared and for good reason. Once they took their beating the british cavalry did not follow anymore.
    I'm so tired of british propaganda after 200 years... the movie Waterloo is also biased to frustration.
    Last edited by Sirlion; March 15, 2017 at 06:49 AM.
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  15. #15
    Samittaja's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    http://historianet.fi/sota/waterloon...na-iltapaivana

    Here is the source I used, TK-Historia 9/2015. Unfortunately it is only in Finnish and the actual info box that specifies the elite unit that attacked is missing. But it exists in the printed magazine. Therefore, I have to provide you my own translation. Mind this will be quite liberal, professional translators are likely to cringe a little

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    "Napoleonin kaarti hävisi vain kerran

    Napoleonin kaarti ei ollut pelkkä koriste, vaan se seurasi aina keisaria taisteluun ja sai Euroopan taistelukentillä voittamattoman maineen.
    Niin sanotun vanhan kaartin rykmentit olivat valioista parhaita, lukemattomissa taisteluissa karaistuneita ja rohkeutensa osoittaneita. 'Nuori kaarti' koostui tavallisista asevelvollisista, mutta koska sitä harjoittivat ja johtivat vanhan kaartin upseerit, sekin oli yleensä tehokkaampi kuin tavalliset Ranskan armeijan yksiköt.

    Kun vanhan kaartin hyökkäys epäonnistui Waterloossa, koko Napoleonin armeija menetti uskonsa."
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    "Napoleon's Guard lost only once

    Napoleon's Guard was not only a decoration, but it always followed the Emperor into battle and in the battlefields of Europe it gained
    a reputation of being unbeatable.
    The regiments of the so called Old Guard were the best of the best, hardened and courage proven in countless battles. The Young Guard was made of regular conscripts, but since it was trained and lead by officers of the Old Guard, it too was usually more efficient than regular units of the French army.
    When the attack of the Old Guard failed at Waterloo, the whole army of Napoleon lost it's faith."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So is the source I used credible? Probably yes and no. I believe the writers do their research on written sources. But we need to remember they are not professional historians. They do mistakes, sometimes the information given is very much based on popular image and sometimes I've seen information that is clearly subjective rather than objective. And of course, since this is a regularly- published magazine, they have both time and space constraints. But even then I believe this is a better source than Wikipedia.

    Now that I've given my source, it's your time to give yours. Let's keep this thread polite and preferably let's refer to sources.
    Last edited by Samittaja; March 15, 2017 at 02:48 PM. Reason: correcting miss spellings and improvements in outlook

  16. #16

    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    Why dont you scroll up... i gave you the source link...

    that page is the most complete work about Waterloo you can find on internet. You can find all sources mentioned at the bottom. Your "source" is a single sentence, that is just incorrect, and quite a over-generalization of that battle..


    And even Middle Guard, while being formed just few weeks before battle, fought well, received enemy musket and canister fire, fired at enemy for more than 15 minutes, and only broke after significant casualties.. But what everybody keeps missing is fact, that those 5 battalions of Middle Guard practically attacked entire Allied center, backed with multiple cavalry units, while Wellington moved all his reserves to repel that attack... so chances for success were actually minimal from the start. Yet they still managed to attack superior force of enemy and break through their front line..


    oh, and let me stress this part for you:

    Many authors inflate the number of battalions of French Guard that attacked Wellington's positions. They want you think as if the entire French Guard fell right on the handfull of allied soldiers. Aside from some fuzzy math, they present the defeat of the Middle Guard as the achievement of British troops and so winning the entire campaign. The same people believe that Captain Mercer was solely responsible for keeping the Brunswickers in line. It reminds me another invention, that the French 45th Line Infantry Regiment was an elite formation. This was invented by enthusiasts to enhance the value of the captured Eagle.

    The authors are critical of anyone who came in contact with Wellington's troops. They take 80 % off the performance score of anyone not having had the good sense to have been born British. This is the "Waterloo industry" that exists in its worst. Such books were written for particular market and are likely to continue to do well in that very specific market with myths and tall tales.
    Last edited by JaM; March 15, 2017 at 04:44 PM.

  17. #17
    Samittaja's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    that page is the most complete work about Waterloo you can find on internet. You can find all sources mentioned at the bottom. Your "source" is a single sentence, that is just incorrect, and quite a over-generalization of that battle...
    You are most likely correct. Well, This magazine was the first time I had red the details of the battle, therefore I was forced to believe it. It's not a proper source, but at least I think it's better than many others.


    And I'm terribly sorry for not noticing your link. To be honest, I just skipped through your comments after I felt your comments were aggressive, on the brink of toxic. Well, time to give the link a look.
    Last edited by Samittaja; March 16, 2017 at 09:51 AM.

  18. #18
    Samittaja's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    Having now red your link, it goes into deeper detail of the event, and therefore I find it more believable. I shall concede defeat.

    P.S. So, the Old Guard never lost a fight? Is that really true? It has the same feel of propaganda as many other similar claims.

    P.S.S. Quite a detour of the original topic
    Last edited by Samittaja; March 16, 2017 at 09:55 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    Its not a vicrory i was seeking.. i just wanted to point out common misconception about Waterloo british authors are usually spreading..

    I didnt wanted to sound agressive, but ive been batling this misinformation way too many times in the past which makes me agitated sometimes..
    Last edited by JaM; March 16, 2017 at 09:57 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: What's wrong with French morale?

    There is no recorded info about Old Guard losing a fight. Yet, If we look at entire Napoleonic War, at Marengo 1800, almost entire Consular Guard was wiped out by Austrian cavalry. Two battalions of Consular Guard Grenadiers (practically a predecessors of the Imperial Guard) covered the retreat, yet were surrounded by attacking Austrians and destroyed.. yet battle turned for Napoleon because at the last moment Desaix division arrived, counterattacked victorious Austrians and routed them completely..

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