Crazy Building Idea - Potentials

**Reimu Hakurei** · May 27, 2016, 01:06 PM

I might consider getting into M2TW modding again.

But before that, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on my idea that I think is "crazy and revolutionary" - or so I think. It's actually not very revolutionary, as it is a clearly stolen idea - inspired by the Estates from The Cossacks DLC for Europa Universalis IV, though I did have something similar in mind back in 2011 or so too.

The basic idea is that each province you own would belong to someone within your faction: the ruler (YOU), the nobility, the burgers, the clergy or the free peasantry (yeomen?) and the knightly orders. Castle-town distinctions would be abolished.

The Six Estates: Royalty, Nobility, Clergy, Burghers, Yeomen and Knightly Orders

Royalty
Normally, when YOU - and your close relatives (the royalty) - are the one and only owner of the province, you can only recruit mercenaries, a limited amount of peasant levies, and maybe some unique units. You get all the income, loyalty is normal.
Do note that the option to recruit mercenaries, limited amounts of peasant levies and the unique elite units still stands even if you give the province to one of the other five estates.

Nobility
Giving the province to the nobility would grant you access to elite units - for Europeans, that would mean Knights. Mounted and Dismounted alike. For the Moors and Egyptians, it would be Arab Cavalry, Mamluks (Egypt-only) and Jinetes (Moors-only) instead. For the Turks, it would be Sipahis.
However, it would reduce income you get from the province, and since medieval nobles aren't known for being the most loyal folk - oath or no oath - the province's loyalty would be reduced.

Also, Knights, Arab Cavalry, Mamluks, Jinetes and Sipahis would become general bodyguard units. In other words, when you are hiring one of these units, you are also hiring a general.

Clergy
Giving the province to the clergy would allow you to recruit more priests, make missionaries more effective, make education more effective (acting like a sort of university, a la Stainless Steel), and if you are Catholic, the Pope will like you much more.
The Church doesn't have a reason to betray you, so loyalty is increased (chances of peasant rebellion lowered). I am not sure if trade income should be lowered or increased - while in practice, you lose sources of income by giving away land to the Church, the clergy have historically made fine governors and economists... besides, game balance - we gotta give players incentive to give some land to the clergy!

Also, for the Danish, this would unlock the Norse War Clerics.

Burghers
Giving the province to the burghers would give you access to militia units - Spear Militia, Crossbow Militia, etc. - and for Catholic Eastern European nations (namely, Hungary and Poland, maybe Denmark and HRE as well), the Burgher Pikemen would become hire-able. Oh, and the dreaded Merchant Cavalry Militia would be hired here as well.
Additionally, trade income would increase, but along with it the chance of your governor gaining negative vices. Not sure what to do with settlement loyalty / rebellion chance.

Yeomen or Free Peasants
Giving the province to them would first and foremost decrease your income, but would drastically increase province happiness. It would also allow you to hire Peasant units in higher numbers: Peasants, Peasant Archers, Peasant Crossbowmen - maybe Peasant Spearmen would make a comeback, being given to all factions rather than just the junk Saxons. For the English, Yeomen Longbowmen would be available here. For the Hungarians, you would get Slav Levies (or something similar) and Magyar Cavalry.

Maybe the income shouldn't drop - as peasants who can manage their own land are much more motivated to work harder - but you know, game balance...

Knightly Orders
Only available to Catholic factions, replacing the "guild" orders, you would be given the opportunity to give the province to the Templars, Hospitallers or Teutonic Knights, giving you access to their special units (Templar/Hospitaller Sergeants-Crossbowmen-Gunners, Templar Knights, Hospitaller Knights, Teutonic Halbrüders-Ritterbrüders-etc, etc.), and some nice bonuses.

How do I plan on implementing this?

Via buildings.
Simply having buildings named "Estate Grant to Nobility", "Estate Grant to Clergy". Then I would have Stables, Archery Ranges and Barracks, so I can tie recruiting the units to having the estate - Stables, Barracks and Archery Rangers would offer no bonuses on their own, so that the game won't crash by adding a building requirement to unit recruitment.

Alternatively, I could just tie the unit recruitment to the estates, and make the estates upgradeable, increasing their advantages as the settlement develops.
The original MTW had a building named "Baronial Court" that could be upgraded to "Baronial Estate". The earlier would unlock Feudal Knights, the latter Chivalric Knights.

Back in 2010-2012 - before I encountered EU4 and it's DLC - I had the idea that you would be able to build multiple estates in your province, but doing so would result in the province slipping out of your hands for all practical purposes - you would lose nearly all income the province offers in exchange for the bonuses the estates would grant.
My current idea is simply one estate per province.
Not building any estate would simply mean that the province is in the hands of the royalty - maximum income for you, neutral loyalty, but no noble knights, no burgher militias, etc. Alternatively, the lack of estate building could represent lack of proper administration, and the royalty would have their own estate building as well, providing bonuses I did not come up with yet.

Your cents?

**Frunk** · May 28, 2016, 04:36 AM

I don't know much about buildings, but this seems like an awesome idea. I hope you give it a crack. Good luck! +rep

One question I do have is do you have any idea how the AI would make use of this set up?

**Vladyvid** · May 28, 2016, 04:59 AM

Hey, havent seen you for a while!

First I would like to ask what is the purpose of this idea? Is it to make the gameplay more challenging, or what exactly? Because you didn't explain your reasons for having such system.

Then I can only say what I think, and Im not a history expert but I believe I know enough about the middle ages to say that the whole concept here is pretty much wrong. What I mean is the concept of different provinces being owned by those different groups, its just wrong. All provinces within each realm/kingdom in medieval Europe were owned by the monarch and that's pretty much all you can say about nominal ownership in feudal system.

The monarch then granted fiefs but he was still the nominal owner of everything. One could argue that in case of the clergy the owner was the catholic church but that is quite complicated because on one hand the monarch of a particular country was the "owner" of all his lands, and on the other hand the Pope often considered himself to be the "owner" of all catholic lands, superior to all kings and that authority was at times only questioned by the HRE Emperors - but even some of them had to eventually submit to the power of the Holy See.

All in all the medieval Europe was a dualistic world of nobility (including royals) and clergy, and they were all feudal lords who could recruit any kinds of soldiers they only had available. To adress each of the groups you mentioned, this is what I know:

Royalty - nominal owners of everything, each: town, castle, stone, tree, field, animal, peasant, etc. ;their power was regarded as granted by God so their right to rule had a divine mandate
Nobility - delegated with powers from the royalty and in theory just administrators of the monarch's possessions, payed taxes, had to field armies for the monarch and not just knights but any men available that they could afford including peasants, militias and what not
Clergy - granted lands and holdings similar as nobles but the difference was the property was granted to the Church not to the particular people or families, so it was a part of the system of joint rule of sacrum and profanum, they didnt pay taxes as far as I know, could have their own little armies if they were (particular bishops) rich enough; for a monarch to grant more land to the Church was mostly not very practical thing to do, unless he needed their support in some situation or was just a religious man who believed it to be right thing to do
Burghers - only allowed to have certain rights and privilages in their towns/cities and surely didnt own anything outside of their own town, had to pay taxes or do free servinces to the feudal lords on whose lands they lived, generally not used for combat unless for the defences of their own town/city because they were only part time soldiers and their day jobs were traders or craftsmen and as such valuable to the ruler because of their skills
Yeomen or Free Peasants - I think complete nonesense to say they could own any province, they only owned their own lives if anything, but those lives were mostly less valuable than lets say that of a horse to a feudal lord or monarch, besides I'm really not sure if there were substantial numbers of free peasants as peasantry was generally not free - slaves in all but name
Knightly Orders - they were not a separate social group, they were nobles who decided to serve the Church and overtime created their own little agendas because all men are power hungry, one could say they were a hybrid of nobility and clergy but nominally owned no provinces (same as nobility)

Important facts: nobility, clergy, burghers and (free?) peasants existed in each province, and none of them owned the whole province, because the nominals owners were always the royals. Knightly Orders were granted some castles or lands but never whole provinces, at least not in the sense of provinces in M2TW.

Ofcourse one could argue that the Teutonic Knights created their own state and so they were the rulers of such and such provinces, but I can compare them to the situation which occured in France in the year 1066 when the Duke of Normandy conquered England and made himself King of England. The Teutonic Knights didn't just came to be in Prussia because of their own grand plan to be there but they were invited by a polish Duke who granted them a fief (like he would to any of his vassals) and in return the Teutonic Knights agreed to conquer the Prussia for him as his vassals. That they later decided it was a better idea to create their own state and become independent is another story. There were many such situations across Europe during that period when a powerful noble would declare independence - rebelling against his former liege lord.

All I said here was in relation to catholic Europe, because I dont know enough about orthodox or muslim feudal systems to say much.

**paleologos** · May 28, 2016, 08:10 AM

That sounds a lot like a simpler proposal I made some time ago in the Titanium sub-forum.

Originally Posted by paleologos

.....

I made a suggestion a while ago but the team did not ponder upon it.
In defence of the team I must say that I did not elaborate on my recommendation, nor did I follow through in any way until now.
So this is what I am recommending.

Part A:
All regions ought to have the basic land clearence made at start. (bear with me, it's about knights, really)
I we can make for more that one land clearence then after the farmland has been built on the first land clearence, the second land clearence should become available.
The second land clearence should make available a second line of farmland structures.

Part B:
Two types of farmland:
Royal estates and feudal estates.
Only one type of structure line should be available for building on one land clearence:
Royal estates give pop growth and farm revenue, like vanilla farms do and are the structure that allows recruitment of peasant militias.
Feudal estates give pop growth and no revenue, instead, they are the structure that allows the recruitment of feudal troops, like sergeants and knights.
Higher levels allow for greater recruitment pools and replenishment rates.

Part C:
Estate types can be convertible from one type to another, like cities are convertible to castles and vice versa.

Part D:
Decision will need to be made on the number of land clearences in addition to the first/second one and on other prerequisites for the additional clearences, such as the level of development of the previous farm line.

Part E:
I have entertained the thought of a other "types" of farmland:
Ecclesiastic endowments, such as the endowments for monasteries and chapter houses.
Endowments for monasteries do not give pop growth, or farm revenue but since the monks get the money of food sold, then they might spend that money on embelishing their structures, meaning more trade.
Endowments for chapter houses, well if fighting knightly orders are a source of "cheaper" knights then I guess that the cost of equipping and supplying those order MaA would have to come from somewhere.

Part F:
You name it, I can't think of everything, I'm just a poor, lonesome, modeller.

It still includes the abolition of castles as distinct settlement types.
And it is simpler in it's implementation as it would only add some new farmland "building" strings and "play" with their bonuses.

**Reimu Hakurei** · May 28, 2016, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Frunk

I don't know much about buildings, but this seems like an awesome idea. I hope you give it a crack. Good luck! +rep

Thank you

Originally Posted by Frunk

One question I do have is do you have any idea how the AI would make use of this set up?

I have no idea about this, to be honest. I don't know anything about the AI.

Originally Posted by paleologos

That sounds a lot like a simpler proposal I made some time ago in the Titanium sub-forum.

It still includes the abolition of castles as distinct settlement types.
And it is simpler in it's implementation as it would only add some new farmland "building" strings and "play" with their bonuses.

Yes, it does sound similiar to that, but I think my version is somewhat simpler: I would have mutually exclusive building chains. 128 is the hard-coded limit for building chains.
So I would have a building chain for the Nobility, the Clergy, the Burghers, the Yeomen, the Templars, the Hospitallers, the Teutonics and the Knights of Santiago.
If it boils down to the development of estates, then I guess the Royals would get their own building as well.