Warhammer and Warcraft

[Ngazi]

Warcraft was originally going to be based on Warhammer and there seems to still be some similarities, just based on what I've seen of gameplay so far. So for those who know anything about both lores, what do you think someone who only played Warcraft should know about Warhammer?

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Hmmm there are barely any similarities left to be honest, Blizzard did some what managed to make their own lore for the better or the worst (scrub war incoming).

But I think if you feel safe with blizzard warcraft, I think you will easily be able to settle down with warhammer.

[Osbot]

Warcraft was originally going to be based on Warhammer and there seems to still be some similarities, just based on what I've seen of gameplay so far. So for those who know anything about both lores, what do you think someone who only played Warcraft should know about Warhammer?

Warcraft originally WAS going to be Warhammer. The original deal was to make a Warhammer RTS. At some point the deal fell through and Blizzard had a game that was Warhammer inspired, and no IP to work with. So they changed some things and Warcraft was born. Since then the lore has diverged quite radically, but if you played the original warcraft back in the day, the similarities are striking especially regarding the design of Orcs.

Warhammer is darker, but more comedic. Warcraft is like bubble-gum. Everything dark from Warhammer was sanitized. To be fair, at this point we've got over 20 years of separation between the two IPs. They are radically different now, so much so that there is pretty much nothing similar about them anymore.

[Arimahn]

Warcraft Orcs are more Tolkien-esque than Warhammer Orcs, for one, and that separation only grew over time into the "noble savage" type we have today. Warhammer Orcs were designed as straight up soccer hooligans from the start. Likewise the humans in Warcraft are much closer to your stereotypical European medieval society than the Renaissance society of Warhammer. I think the biggest similarities are actually between WC and WH dwarves.

[Col. Tartleton]

Warhammer is pretty similar to the Witcher in terms of aesthetics and themes. Although I don't think there's any direct influence, just the same general concepts.

[Samitte]

Warcraft was originally going to be based on Warhammer and there seems to still be some similarities, just based on what I've seen of gameplay so far. So for those who know anything about both lores, what do you think someone who only played Warcraft should know about Warhammer?

The first two Warcraft games took many elements straight out of Warhammer, the Orcs themselves being the most obvious, which until this day, still has the stereotypical Orc Grunt in WoW being a carbon copy Warhammer Orc.

• The Goblins: visuals
• Dwarfs: Visuals and their mechanical aptitude, and one could argue there are similarities with the Wildhammer and Dark Iron Dwarfs and Slayers/Chaos Dwarfs respectively
• High Elves: who now not much of a thing anymore, but they were in early Warcraft, going as far to live on an Island with a bunch of magic stones around it which guard it from the great evil - akin to the home of the High Elves - Ulthuan, in Warhammer
• The Lich King: Nagash and the Undead (before the split into Vampire Counts/Tomb Kings)
• Starcraft: Terrans (Space Marines), Zerg (Tyranids) and Protoss (Eldar) come straight from Warhammers sci-fi brother, Warhammer 400000.

There are many other elements as well that are less obvious, and in these cases you can make arguments either way, but the Dark Portal (Chaos Gate from which all the evil comes), Night Elves (Dark Skinned Wood Elves + Treants especially old Warhammer treant designs).

It is only with Warcraft III and WoW afterwards that Blizzard came up with many of the elements that are really 'theirs', with Starcraft still being 'that Warhammer 40k rip off' in my opinion

Warhammer is pretty similar to the Witcher in terms of aesthetics and themes. Although I don't think there's any direct influence, just the same general concepts.

Yeah, the Empire of Man in Warhammer is based on the Holy Roman Empire around the same time period as the writer of the Witcher based his world. (Late Medieval, Early Modern).

Other parts of Warhammer take elements from different eras or even myths like:

• Brettonia from the Arthurian legends
• Orcs and Goblins are essentially English Hooligans
• Tomb Kings use Egyptian aethetics
• Lizardmen Mesoamerican
• Chaos tribesmen are vikings
• North of 'Warhamer China' there are the equivalent of Mongol Hordes

And the list goes on

[AlliedZero]

• Starcraft: Terrans (Space Marines), Zerg (Tyranids) and Protoss (Eldar) come straight from Warhammers sci-fi brother, Warhammer 400000.

I have no knowledge of anything Warhammer. But after reading this entire thread I went through and googled this. First image I see of the Tyranids and all I can see are overlords, two Hydralisks and an Ultralisk. The similarity is very convincing. I am glad you posted this as it is pretty neat.

[MrMassacre]

Warhammer is pretty similar to the Witcher in terms of aesthetics and themes. Although I don't think there's any direct influence, just the same general concepts.

I'm doing a playthrough of The Witcher 3 right now and that's so true. I always get the urge to leave the campaign and start playing Witcher or vice versa.

[jim501]

Warcraft was originally going to be based on Warhammer and there seems to still be some similarities, just based on what I've seen of gameplay so far. So for those who know anything about both lores, what do you think someone who only played Warcraft should know about Warhammer?

Warcraft wasnt going to be a warhammer game nor was it based on it, at least not mainly.
They have said their main inspiration was Dungeons and Dragons which is much more obvious when they are compared.

As far as your question is concerned, I find it kinda puzzling.
They are different settings with very different stories despite their similarities that are also shared across many fantasy Ip's.
You have to start from scratch learning the lore if you are interested.
Try this if you want http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_Wiki or watch videos on youtube from ArchWarhammer.

The first two Warcraft games took many elements straight out of Warhammer, the Orcs themselves being the most obvious, which until this day, still has the stereotypical Orc Grunt in WoW being a carbon copy Warhammer Orc.

• The Goblins: visuals
• Dwarfs: Visuals and their mechanical aptitude, and one could argue there are similarities with the Wildhammer and Dark Iron Dwarfs and Slayers/Chaos Dwarfs respectively
• High Elves: who now not much of a thing anymore, but they were in early Warcraft, going as far to live on an Island with a bunch of magic stones around it which guard it from the great evil - akin to the home of the High Elves - Ulthuan, in Warhammer
• The Lich King: Nagash and the Undead (before the split into Vampire Counts/Tomb Kings)

There are many other elements as well that are less obvious, and in these cases you can make arguments either way, but the Dark Portal (Chaos Gate from which all the evil comes), Night Elves (Dark Skinned Wood Elves + Treants especially old Warhammer treant designs).

You do know that all of those things were already common in fantasy before warahmmer right ?

[Osbot]

Warcraft wasnt going to be a warhammer game nor was it based on it, at least not mainly.

You are aware, that the original warcraft game, was first an RTS that was more or less designed to be a warhammer game and was heavily inspired by warhammer? The deal didn't come off and Blizzard had an RTS that was based on Warhammer so they had to start changing things up.

This isn't speculation.

http://kotaku.com/5929161/how-warcra...that-saved-wow

From the designer of the game. Now, personally. I think he is admitting only as much as he feels obligated to. There is basically no question in my mind, and many other peoples minds that they were designing a Warhammer game, and for whatever reason the deal didn't work out. Not that "Oh we were super heavily inspired artistically by Warhammer and we wanted to make a warhammer game, but people inside Blizzard wanted to control our own IP". That is called rationalization and moving the goal posts. They are re-writing history to line up with what happened, not what their original intent was.

On the other hand, at least they are finally admitting they ripped the art style off and were trying/thinking about making a Warhammer game.

The truth is, all you have to do is look at Starcraft.

Look at Warcraft, look at what they are saying in that article, "we were thinking about making a Warhammer game, but ultimately we were just inspired by the art, because a bunch of people internally wanted to control the IP". Then, about 4 years later, they drop Starcraft, which is one of the most blatant rip offs of an IP I've ever seen. Here is what I am pretty sure happened.

Blizzard was working on a Warhammer game. Games Workshop, the crazy bastards probably made some insane demands and the deal fell through and Blizzard was left with a game mostly finished that they couldn't use due to copyright. So they made some changes, enough so that the game wasn't Warhammer, and went through with it. At the same time, they were pissed off, and went ahead and spitefully made Starcraft, which rips off the Tyranids, Eldar and Imperium of Men. The Zerg are thematically, and artistically a complete rip off of the Tyranids. The Protoss are thematically a ripoff of the Eldar and somewhat artistically similar. The Terrans are a complete ripoff artistically, not so much thematically.

That's what I think happened, reading between the lines. I don't believe in coincidence, and it's just way too coincidental that Blizzard would make two games, that are so similar artistically and in some cases thematically to Warhammer Fantasy, and Warhammer 40k.

[jim501]

You are aware, that the original warcraft game, was first an RTS that was more or less designed to be a warhammer game and was heavily inspired by warhammer? The deal didn't come off and Blizzard had an RTS that was based on Warhammer so they had to start changing things up.

This isn't speculation.

http://kotaku.com/5929161/how-warcra...that-saved-wow

From the designer of the game. Now, personally. I think he is admitting only as much as he feels obligated to. There is basically no question in my mind, and many other peoples minds that they were designing a Warhammer game, and for whatever reason the deal didn't work out. Not that "Oh we were super heavily inspired artistically by Warhammer and we wanted to make a warhammer game, but people inside Blizzard wanted to control our own IP". That is called rationalization and moving the goal posts. They are re-writing history to line up with what happened, not what their original intent was.

I have read the article.Mutiple times it is posted to prove a point except you miss a ltitle line.
"Warhammer was a huge inspiration for the art-style of Warcraft, but a combination of factors, including a lack of traction on business terms and a fervent desire on the part of virtually everyone else on the development team (myself included) to control our own universe nixed any potential for a deal. "

1 guy proposed they work on it, the rest wanted their own IP, therefore they made warcraft.
They have already cited their inspiration for it DnD mainly and other RPG's and warhammer.
If you compare DnD and warcraft it is obvious.
You can deny what they themselves have said but I dont see the point in it.
Also GW based the entriety of warhammer on the fantasy settings they were working on priorly so I dont see an issue.

It's not unheard of concept ideas to be discarded.
Blizzard had also said they were considering making a star wars game.
I dont see star wars fanboys go mental repeating all the time "blizz worked on star wars, Lucas pulled the plug, starcraft is a rip off".

The Orcs or Warcraft 1 and 2, are pretty much a 1:1 rip off of the Orcs from Warhammer. Look at the pictures of the original grunts from Warcraft. Those are Warhammer Orcs.

The orcs who were invented by Tolkien, then appeared in dozens of fantasy settings before either warhamme or warcraft ?
Do I seriously need to point out the elephant in the room?

The truth is, all you have to do is look at Starcraft.

Look at Warcraft, look at what they are saying in that article, "we were thinking about making a Warhammer game, but ultimately we were just inspired by the art, because a bunch of people internally wanted to control the IP". Then, about 4 years later, they drop Starcraft, which is one of the most blatant rip offs of an IP I've ever seen. Here is what I am pretty sure happened.

Blizzard was working on a Warhammer game. Games Workshop, the crazy bastards probably made some insane demands and the deal fell through and Blizzard was left with a game mostly finished that they couldn't use due to copyright. So they made some changes, enough so that the game wasn't Warhammer, and went through with it. At the same time, they were pissed off, and went ahead and spitefully made Starcraft, which rips off the Tyranids, Eldar and Imperium of Men. The Zerg are thematically, and artistically a complete rip off of the Tyranids. The Protoss are thematically a ripoff of the Eldar and somewhat artistically similar. The Terrans are a complete ripoff artistically, not so much thematically.

Then I take you have never heard of sci-fi tropes or Starship troopers who had the insectoid aliens, advanced aliens and power armors way before either of those?

Also, really? the Imperium of Man ?
Are we considering ing humans a copy now ?

That's what I think happened, reading between the lines. I don't believe in coincidence, and it's just way too coincidental that Blizzard would make two games, that are so similar artistically and in some cases thematically to Warhammer Fantasy, and Warhammer 40k.

Every fantasy universe has the same features.
Compare Heroes of might and magc, elder scrolls, warcraft, warhammer, Dungeons and Dragons,everquest and they all look similar.

Seeing warhammer fans getting angry at warcraft or calling eveything copy is somewaht puzzzling when
1) all the simialritis were taken form sources older than both (dnd, lotr)
2) many famous setting share those very same similarities (even more some times) yet warhammer fans dont seem to care much.

[Archimonday]

What Jim said, the idea of Fantasy creatures, and their basic architypes goes back way before the invention of video games, but instead in the works of literature throughout the years.

So naturally there will be similarities between universes, but it is not hard to pick out the striking contrast between Warcraft and Warhammer. (Lol, in truth I wish this was a Warcraft game!)

[jim501]

(Lol, in truth I wish this was a Warcraft game!)

There is a Warcraft mod in development for Medieval 2.
Check the link in my signature if you are interested.

[TheRomanRuler]

What Jim said, the idea of Fantasy creatures, and their basic architypes goes back way before the invention of video games, but instead in the works of literature throughout the years.

So naturally there will be similarities between universes, but it is not hard to pick out the striking contrast between Warcraft and Warhammer. (Lol, in truth I wish this was a Warcraft game!)

No, it goes back all the way to cave paintings.

[Archimonday]

Well cave paintings are still literature.

Elves, and Dwarfs are old Germanic creatures, first referenced in the medieval ages.

Goblins were a thing in the medieval era as well.

The idea of an Orc primarily comes from Tolkein, but there are old words which Tolkein based his word off of that meant things like "demon."

So the point here is, one universe having such creatures is nothing in and of itself since these architypes have been around for literally thousands of years.

As far as the differences between Warcraft and Warhammer is concerned, I believe for me its primarily in the political climate of the settings.

Where as Warhammer Orcs are portrayed as savage monsters bent on nothing more than war and conquest, Warcraft Orcs are simply looking for a new home, and there are even Orcs in Warcraft lore that work along side humans and elves to fight the forces of Archimonde, and later, Arthas.

Magic is handled fundamentally differently, with Mana pools of individuals and not Winds of Magic.

Also we see a human society where Dwarfs and Humans exist as a part of the same community, the dwarfs being the engineers of the kingdom building war machines for the Human races. Instead of being two separate factions who have separated political motivations.

What im saying is, the races in Warcraft are much more bound to one another than they are in the Warhammer universe. When faced with a common enemy they put aside their differences and save the world they all inhabit.

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk

[Osbot]

Well cave paintings are still literature.

Elves, and Dwarfs are old Germanic creatures, first referenced in the medieval ages.

Goblins were a thing in the medieval era as well.

The idea of an Orc primarily comes from Tolkein, but there are old words which Tolkein based his word off of that meant things like "demon."

So the point here is, one universe having such creatures is nothing in and of itself since these architypes have been around for literally thousands of years.

As far as the differences between Warcraft and Warhammer is concerned, I believe for me its primarily in the political climate of the settings.

Where as Warhammer Orcs are portrayed as savage monsters bent on nothing more than war and conquest, Warcraft Orcs are simply looking for a new home, and there are even Orcs in Warcraft lore that work along side humans and elves to fight the forces of Archimonde, and later, Arthas.

Magic is handled fundamentally differently, with Mana pools of individuals and not Winds of Magic.

Also we see a human society where Dwarfs and Humans exist as a part of the same community, the dwarfs being the engineers of the kingdom building war machines for the Human races. Instead of being two separate factions who have separated political motivations.

What im saying is, the races in Warcraft are much more bound to one another than they are in the Warhammer universe. When faced with a common enemy they put aside their differences and save the world they all inhabit.

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk

Here is why everything you wrote in this post regarding Warcraft and Warhammer is wrong.

Warcraft has retconned the Orcs.

The original Orcs, of Warcraft 1 and Warcraft 2, were savage monsters, bent on nothing more than war and conquest. The whole "looking for a new home thing" happened in Warcraft 3. The original Orcs, were literally just blood thirsty savages who came out of the portal and tried to murder everything.

When you talk about Dwarves, you're talking about Warcraft 3. The theme and setting of Warcraft, between 1 and 3 changed completely. The Orcs or Warcraft 1 and 2, are pretty much a 1:1 rip off of the Orcs from Warhammer. Look at the pictures of the original grunts from Warcraft. Those are Warhammer Orcs.

Simply put. The world of Warcraft 3, is almost completely different than the world of Warcraft 1 and 2. Between 1 and 2, they expanded beyond the Orcs and Humans setting, added more races to the mix. But it wasn't until 3 that the setting and themes of the game shifted to what you are talking about.

[Keyser]

By the way, in Warhammer many dwarves have chosen to live in human settlements looking to the Empire for the protection they can't get anymore in the orc infested mountains. They are engineer and craftmen.

At least it was this way in WFRP and in the oldest editions, before the dwarves got boosted from their "in decline and past their glory days" description to "under a strong leadership and trying to reconquer everything lost"*.

So another similarity (even if independant dwarven kingdoms were always a part of Warhammer lore).


*In the same way, in WFRP and the oldest editions, Karl Franz was an old impotent emperor with a mutant heir and his court full of corruption (chaotic or not). Let's say his WFB alter ego got a serious boost. It's something that happened to every races in Warhammer...
The bretonnian were just a decadent nobility ruling over mass of poor and opressed peasants and went to become a super elite force of virtuous knights... Albeit, ruling over a mass of poor and opressed peasants...

[KAM 2150]

You do realise that first Warcraft was supposed to be a Warhammer game? And that even co founder of Blizzard siad that Warhammer was their DIRECT inspiration? Or the fact that Andy Chambers, who was one of the brains behind Warhammer 40k is now the Creative Director and Blizzard, especially Starcraft? It is not like I have anything against Blizzard, I enjoy both settings and I love Blizzard games, but come on, you have to be blind not to see a thing here.

[jim501]

You do realise that first Warcraft was supposed to be a Warhammer game? And that even co founder of Blizzard siad that Warhammer was their DIRECT inspiration? Or the fact that Andy Chambers, who was one of the brains behind Warhammer 40k is now the Creative Director and Blizzard, especially Starcraft? It is not like I have anything against Blizzard, I enjoy both settings and I love Blizzard games, but come on, you have to be blind not to see a thing here.

How a person being hired in 2006 is relevant in any way to Blizzzard supposedly copying warhammer in 1994 is something I would like to see you explain.

For the rest see page 1.

[Charerg]

I guess you could say Warcraft is heavily inspired by Warhammer, but I do personally find it a bit silly how often you see "Warcraft is a Warhammer rip-off" argument on the internet. I don't recall seeing any proof that WarCraft actually was intended to be a Warhammer game, frankly this seems more of an "internet rumor" that gets repeated so often that people actually believe it. I guess it's true to the extent that the Orcs are essentially the same thing (visually) in both (and the Dwarves, to an extent), but I would hardly call it a rip-off. Not that Warcraft is necessarily super-original, it isn't. But I would consider Warhammer as well to be pretty "generic" fantasy, tbh.


Re: Tyranids vs Zerg
While there are undoubtedly similarities with the two, I'd like to point out that the original Starcraft was released way back in 1998. Back then, the Tyranid models looked quite different from today. And while both races ultimately draw their inspiration from "Alien" there surely has been some inspiration going back and forth...in both directions. The Games Workshop guys who made up the present Tyranid models played Starcraft as well, you know. A good example would be the Raveners. I've heard it said that "Hydralisk are a copy of Raveners", but Raveners were only added to the Tyranids in 3rd edition codex (2001)!

With the Terrans and the Protoss, I think it's pointless to make comparisons, Terrans are fairly generic "Humans in power armour", that's about as far as the Space Marine similarities go. Similarly, "high-tech aliens" is hardly something specific to Eldar (who themselves aren't terribly original, being Elves-in-space).