Ad Mari a Mare general overview and discussion

[Peanut2bigforyou]

Wow this mod looks amazing. I am so enthralled with the work and how it's still being updated!!

[Hellvard]

Glad you like it Even though I'm working mostly alone I'm constantly making progress on this project

[Svir@c]

Wow ... Astonishing looking ... like everything here! Will follow this gladly. Fantastically looking units on battleground, with those colours and variety of those from one to another!! Stuning ...
I wish you good job and ... the rest, you know ...

[Hellvard]

Stay tuned, more news coming soon I'm currently finishing german regional knights units.

[Wallachian]

Where is middle east ? No crusades no jihad?? You have destroyed the game I think

What the hell dude? This game is not focused on the middle east but on central and eastern europe. As there are mods focused on western europe, on americas or mods focused on middle east. This is not one of them. Not every mod has to include every area.

[Hellvard]

Thüringen ritter/Thuringian knights. I've already finished also Brandenburg, Sachsen and Mecklenburg knights, all with their own officers and bannermens

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Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Hellvard]

A little sneak peak of italian units, Guastatori (sappers) used for built siege equipment and all other engineering works

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[Hellvard]

A little update, Mercenary Provence knights

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[Duke of Piedmont]

Great job!! I look forward to play your mod!!

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[Jurand of Cracow]

Yes, indeed, it's promising. After having played Broken Crescent in the Middle East setting, I'd be very happy to play something in the Central European theater. Unfortunately, the HRR mod was left unfinished, and the Baltic campaign for the Battle for the Baltic was botched up.... Keep my fingers crossed that AMaM fills this vacuum.

BTW, are you going to modify somehow the name of the mod?

It's not reffering to Vulgata and it's not an intentional mistake This title was proposed by one of my friends on polish TW site. His treachery will not go unpunished

[Hellvard]

I could do this, but I don't know if there is much sense in doing this now

[Jurand of Cracow]

I could do this, but I don't know if there is much sense in doing this now

I think there is. What's the point of having a grammar error in the name of a project you put so much effort in?
Me, personally, I'd be happy to have something more to the point on the content of the mod, similar to the "Broken Crescent". For instance, "The Younger Europe" following prof. Kłoczowski proposal.

BTW - could you update us on the other important facets of the mod? I've got the feeling that you're making really an effort on the units, but we're ignorant on the other issues

[Hellvard]

Interesting idea, I'll think about this Well, the thing is, that I'm actually working only on units for now. I started making some scripts and basics of new recruitments systems for different factions, but I just have not enough time to deal with all these matters at the same time, I had to limit my work to units only, as I would make no progress at all if I would be working on all aspects of the mod. Unforunatelly I have a little free time due to some boring and unnecessary things like work and so on And I'm working on this project alone now - all my co-workers fade away without saying goodbye

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'm actually working only on units for now. I started making some scripts and basics of new recruitments systems for different factions, but I just have not enough time to deal with all these matters at the same time, I had to limit my work to units only, as I would make no progress at all if I would be working on all aspects of the mod. Unforunatelly I have a little free time due to some boring and unnecessary things like work and so on And I'm working on this project alone now - all my co-workers fade away without saying goodbye

This is at the same time both disappointing and unsurprising. I think most of the mods end in such a way: after much work is done in some aspects of the mod, they are being not put operational (or left heavily bugged) because other areas are not finished and a team stops to work. This may happen for a few reasons: some people just lose interest in moding (either in general sense or they just move to another project), some are unable to cooperate with the other moders (what always entails compromises...), in some teams conflicts flare up, or the moding strategy proves wrong (eg. the goal are not possible to achieve).
To create a "great mod" you usually much more people than it seems needed at the outset since they'll be leaving for certain reasons. Still, in the M2TW it is possible to have one-man mods, but they are either one-man-plus-some-helpers (like The Italian Wars being finalized now with Ainerin leading) or they're built on a previous great mod (like Sandy's Dawn of Conflict built on DLV). This means you need to take the base from another mod - the best example are many Stainless Steel offsprings (with BtfB, HURB, Titanium or SSHIP). Many times the submods are a de facto continuation of the base game, like Buff and Shine for the Broken Crescent or the Battlefield Balancer for the DLV, BGRV for Stainless Steel or the HURB. Otherwise, much of vanilla will be left undone - what is the case of In Nomine Dei or even Hispania in the Middle Ages, despite its ingenious scripting) - either on the graphical side (units, buildings) or mechanics of the game (scripts, economy effects).

So my question: what is your strategy? What are you going to start with and how are you going to make sure that the hundreds of hours you've worked on the units and other stuff will not go down the drain (as it is the case with eg Dominion of the Sword or the Das Heiliges Romisches Reich) but will make somebody happy by playing?
JoC

My observations are based on the following experience:
I have played extensively Stainless Steel with different submods: Byg Grim Reality IV_E, Battle for the Baltics 2.0, and Historical Units Regions Buildings 5.4. I’ve played a few games on Broken Crescent 2.4 with Buff and Shine 1.6 and with Deus lo Vult 6.2 with Battle Balancer 4.36. I have also tried other medieval times M2TW mods: Bellum Crucis 7.0, Anatolian Principalities, SS-BGRV – but I've found them much inferior on the gameplay and left after 20-40 turns. With RTW I have played devotedly Europa Barbarorum 1.2 (what I still consider as the best mod ever) and Rome Total Realism VII. I'm looking forward to playing dozens of games with Europa Barbarorum II, but until now I've played just one game. I've also played a few games with R2TW-DeI and ATW-FotE-EP, and one very long campaign ATW-Tuskmod as WRE. I’ve also had a look at other M2TW mods (HiMA, DoC, IND, DIK, HRR, 1648, BS, OiM2, DotS, TATW, SV) and played other TW games (old good MTW, horrible ETW).

I think there're 3 "great mods" worth attention. They change almost every aspect of the game and are de facto new games using the M2TW engine:
* Third Age Total War (TATW with many submods)
* Stainless Steel (SS6.4 with numerous submods)
* Europa Barbarorum II (EBII)

I think 5 mods that can also be seen as distinct games as they're finished, polished and include well-thought-out mechanics:
* 1648: Thirty Years of War (1648)
* Broken Crescent (BC 2.4.2 with B&S 1.6)
* Hispania in the Middle Ages (with many vanilla facets, however)
* The Warth of the Norsemen + The Last Kingdom (distinct mods, but sharing many facets)
* The Italian Was (the ultimate version is still in gestation, but already 4.0 is great)

Two well-developed mods but dated now (ie. I don't think its' worth spending much time playing with)
* Deus lo Vult (DLV 6.2 with BB 4.36)
* Chivalry II: Sicilian Vespers (SV 3.3)

I admit having no interest in fantasy mods of Hyrule, Warhammer and Westeros, neither in China where the much-acclaimed Rise of Three Kingdoms takes place. I'm looking forward to the conclusion of work on Albion TW, maybe Tsardoms TW and The Great Conflicts. I don't know much about Rus 2 TW, but it might albo be very good.

There're also two other big mods, but I'll not mention them since they don't follow the good conduct rules on modding - either forbidding others of re-using their work or re-using work of the others without asking.

[Hellvard]

I won't take another mod as a base - I already have whole new and almost finished map When I came to conclusion that I will be unable to finish such big project alone I came up with idea that I will release some beta or even alpha version and that will attract attention of potential new team members. Unfortunatelly even process of making alpha version with no new scripts, mechanics and so on took much longer than I expected, due to many various, especially real life things. You can see that I already made or imported many units, but some factions have entire rosters, some only a few units, some requires research, and sadly my researcher just gone silent for couple of weeks

[Jurand of Cracow]

I won't take another mod as a base - I already have whole new and almost finished map When I came to conclusion that I will be unable to finish such big project alone I came up with idea that I will release some beta or even alpha version and that will attract attention of potential new team members. Unfortunatelly even process of making alpha version with no new scripts, mechanics and so on took much longer than I expected, due to many various, especially real life things. You can see that I already made or imported many units, but some factions have entire rosters, some only a few units, some requires research, and sadly my researcher just gone silent for couple of weeks

I didn't mean a map or units to be a "base". Obviously, these are exactly the new things in the mod: map, cities and provinces, characters, units (and sometimes also different starting time, what is an important advantage of Dawn of Conquest, for instance). To tell the truth: it's why I'd like to play your mod: the central European setting in the M2TW environment, perhaps in the later Middle Ages. It's like I get Middle Eastern environment in the Broken Crescent, or the Spanish one in the Hispania in the Middle Ages.

As a "base" I mean "mechanics of the gameplay", eg:
- CAI including diplomacy behaviour (this is decisive for the balance and playing beyond 30 turns...);
- economy and settlement management (especially public order, but also such things like economy system up to the wonderful level of DLV);
- recruitment system (from various buildings, or from a specialized "feudal" system, or AoR like etc.);
- BAI and behaviour of the soldiers in the battles (you know well that without Germanicus RBAI there's little sense to play a mod);
- scripts related to everything;
- traits (well, this interests me a lot, as you may expect).
You can have a mechanics from vanilla (well, I cannot tell much since I've never played vanilla, I've started with SS6.4), mechanics from the DLV (it's easy for the DLV players to play DoC), mechanics from the SS (some like it, some hate it). For instance, in the Broken Crescent you've got plenty of units ready to be recruited, usually a lot of money, order in the settlements is easy, tamed CAI. In the DLV you've got a very special attitude to the economy and rather fast-paced battles. In the Bellum Crucis the CAI behaves... well, strangely, forget it. In the SS many things depend on the mod chosen, but actually you always know what to expect and it's easy to play "another mod". In the EBII you've got very slow battles. Etc. etc. In each of the mods there're thousands of details which play a role in experience of the players and were worked out in thousand test and plays. You really need a lot of work to find the balance and to spot the bugs. If you create everything from scratch, you'll need another 10 years to fine-tune all the details...

[Hellvard]

Of course I'm planning on using such features, but even implementing already finished mechanics from other mods takes quite a time

[Jurand of Cracow]

It's exactly what I mean: I think it takes an awful lot of time to adapt mechanics from the other mods. Parts of my submods on the generals' traits are being implemented in the The Italian Wars mod. Guys there are spending many hours adapting them to the TIKW environment for differences. Eg. some traits used in the SS don't exist in the vanilla and they have to be introduced to TIW. Then everything has to be checked for compatibility and logic. Finally, there're questions on how how they impact the gameplay. Awful lot of work for a bunch of dedicated people.

My conclusion is: the "base" situation you're starting with does matter a lot. If you take the files vanilla and then mod them - you're using vanilla, with all bad features present there. If you take the files from another mod and then modify it - you're using that other mod (with many features improved, but many might be not up to your taste). There's an extremely strong path-dependance: what you've decided at the outset, you'll have to live it to the very end days of the mod.

In my opinion - if you use vanilla and implement mechanics from the other mods, then it doesn't spell neither fast conclusion, nor compatibility with the players' habits gained in the other mods, nor balance for a few first years, I think. Or it's going to be vanilla with new map and new units and perhaps some modification to the script.

If you would take another mod as a base (eg. SS or SSHIP, DLV or DoC, BC-B&S, C:SV) then I'd think you might succeeded.

These thoughts are based on my observations that you have done a lot on units, models, graphics, maps, history of the factions, but not on the other parts of the mod I've mentioned previously: scripting BAI and CAI, scripting diplomacy, traits and ancillaries, economy and management system. These are absolutely crucial for the players to have fun - and to be willing to play the mod. I think you may "inherit" these aspects it from what I've called "the base mod".

[Hellvard]

Allright I chose SSHIP as a base, and I already finished basic integration between it and my mod files Of course now it requires testing, campaign script customization and so on, but both campaign and battles are playable

[wraithwalker]

tbh atm im only window shopping, already have a few different mods however i like to look at new up and coming mods love the look and the ideas behind this and once ive had my fill of my current mods will definately check back in - looks incredible and good luck with future developments.