(RS3)slingers throw rock overhead

[naq]

Maybe just me only start notice it now but slingers seem to throw rocks over the heads of their targets all the time, make it mostly miss and ineffective. Is it a bug or slinger really bad at throwing rocks historically?

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Maybe just me only start notice it now but slingers seem to throw rocks over the heads of their targets all the time, make it mostly miss and ineffective. Is it a bug or slinger really bad at throwing rocks historically?

Well trained slingers can be extremely effective - during the Middle Republican period (where our Simulation/Mod' starts - the 2nd Punic War) slingers from the Balaeric Islands and Rhodes were particularly famed and could often be found in relatively small numbers (ie a single unit on our scale) serving as mercenaries in many armies around the region.

In later years the Judean slingers were also noted (around the time of the Jewish revolt in the 60's AD). In all cases semi-linked to long periods where the younger men looked after sheep and trained rather a lot one surmises, both as a defence against 'wolves' (both animal and human!), and probably through boredom too; as well as hunting small prey.

Slingshot used in this way normally follows a fairly flat trajectory, both for accuracy and effect. Long ranges are indeed possible with slingshot, especially when launched more ballistically.

Getting the balance between range, accuracy and effect is not entirely easy in RTW/RS, but the Team did a good job. Sometimes it can appear to go over - and this would certainly be reasonable at longer ranges.

[Alavaria]

Really, this is most pronounced when you're doing things that don't make much sense (like shooting point-blank) and it's probably because, hmm, I think the game gives missile units small deviations in angle of shot to simulate inaccuracy. As a result, since slings are high velocity, you tend to see this.

Obviously the shots that go into the ground are not as noticeable.

[naq]

But arrows and javelins are quite accurate though...

[Alavaria]

Javelins have a lot lower velocity and range so they are quite unlikely to dramatically overshoot, yeah. I'd have to double-check about archers, but I think arrows are indeed more accurate than slinger stones.

Since slingers are apparently having their accuracy reduced, this will probably happen even more...

[dvk901]

I have been working on the slingers to get them back to a more 'RS2.6ish' way of performing, but that update will only come when I re-do the RSIII main installer and upload a new one...since I have to change all the related EDU's.

I'm still convinced that slingers should have a bit more range than they did in RS2.6, but, the introduction of an 'accuracy' section into descr_projectiles_new for these units offered a chance to make them far more 'sporadic', shall we say, in terms of hitting anything. When I first started testing slinger stats (old vs new), I was a bit appalled to see that almost every stone in the old stats would hit a target. This was because their was no accuracy setting in the file...in which case it defaults to '0', which appears to be 100% accuracy. By increasing this number, the 'weapon', in this case a stone or a bullet, becomes more and more inaccurate. So i witnessed a change from slinger units hitting everything they aimed at, with resulting devastating casualties on both sides (slinger army vs slinger army)....and I mean devastating, as in almost a whole unit killed off in about 10-20 seconds........to a much better situation where the two slinger armies slugged it out for quit a while with 'believable' casualties and stones flying all over the place....hitting the water in front of the unit, going over the target, etc. They were still causing casualties, but you wouldn't win a battle with them.

I still have to do a bit more testing, but I think the stats will be more 'believable' in the end.

[Alavaria]

Well slingers die easily to slingers, ironically right now even on Very Hard, AI slingers have a hard time doing any damage to my Theurophoroi if it's at their longer ranges.

You'd have to be more specific about what the test was like, slingers shooting slingers will obviously kill one another especially if they are in close formation still.

[naq]

yeah slingers in RS3 also have super long range too. As long as artillery, I think.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Slingers.....Archers.....Javelins......Pila:

It is indeed worth an entire re-hash of these things - although I know I, personally, would be perfectly content with the v2.6 values that had been iterated on for many years and which were tested to death in battle after battle.

As an aside - I also think it would be worth moving slingers and all early archers to the Mercenary Roll and have their recruitment restricted.

Mainly, however, it is their effect and a real understanding of ranges. The fact that the EDU stats are supposedly in feet, or analogous to, is certainly one thing to get past. Firstly that it is effective range that we should concentrate on and not 'theoretical' or even 'hearsay' or perhaps 're-enactment' style based upon modern humans with great health and even better diets.

But also the scale of our battlefields and the figure-scaling - especially when linked to how quickly units react when skirmishing, etc. Real ranges don't matter if we cannot reflect them.

Pila - very close range; used just before a charge; or just before receiving one; only one, possibly two carried - limited ammo.

Javelins/Light Javelins - used for skirmishing (foot out-ranging horse mounted); relatively close range; pretty deadly within that range (the primary ranged weapon throughout our period for many armies; the more Eastern predilection for the bow, particularly mounted, notwithstanding); limitations on ammo

Bows & Arrows - like indeed the Native Americans used much later and by hunters all over the world. Good range; pretty devastating up close and flat trajectories; long range harassing fire; armour will mitigate; shields will mitigate even more - especially if the arrows are seen coming; 20-40 arrows per archer

Slingshot - does take a lot of skill; devastating up close and once more on flat trajectories; can have long range, but with less effect; can't really be seen coming; injuries caused even with armour; shields will mitigate; ammo small but heavy - similar carriage to arrows, especially if regular ammo used (cast lead, not stones).

Overall there are two ways we can go: limit units and have meaningful effects; or allow more units, but reduce effects so that they are not super-weapons. What's really needed, however, are sensible limits on the 'effective' ranges and effects.

[Alavaria]

shields will mitigate even more - especially if the arrows are seen coming

can't really be seen coming; shields will mitigate

Pretty sure that the RTW .exe~s only consider facing when determining how to apply shields (front vs side, 2 possibilities).

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Pretty sure that the RTW .exe~s only consider facing when determining how to apply shields (front vs side, 2 possibilities).

Oh, you are quite right - I was stating reality and not just how the game does it. Even though, indeed, the game will show rear ranks turning to face attacks. This is one reason why the balance between shield and armour stats is so tricky.

[Alavaria]

Even though, indeed, the game will show rear ranks turning to face attacks. This is one reason why the balance between shield and armour stats is so tricky.

Ah yes, they do that in response to enemy proximity. It can help a lot when they are attacked by infantry (another reason charging with little swords isn't that great, the pila does a lot though), but they don't usually respond in time to a cavalry charge.

However, if the unit is Fighting then they won't do this until actually engaged in melee combat. Very useful if you can kill them from a little distance.

[Alavaria]

Maybe just me only start notice it now but slingers seem to throw rocks over the heads of their targets all the time, make it mostly miss and ineffective. Is it a bug or slinger really bad at throwing rocks historically?

You'll be interested to know that archers and especially slingers are now like videogame shotguns - you'd better be using them point-blank. But even then the shots will go everywhere.

Also, it's great now that not only are slingers differentiated by things like range which can't be seen directly, now their shots are all different so you need to refer to EDU and the descr_projectile_new, but even then the effect of differing accuracy isn't entirely clear (how the game treats a 0.40 vs a 0.46 => bigger is worse but how much so)

For instance, if we check the following units in the EDU:

type greek slinger
soldier greek_slinger, 40, 0, 0.526
stat_pri 10, 1, bullet_360*, 360, 40, missile, simple, blunt, none, 25, 0.8
stat_pri_attr ap


type rhodian slingers
soldier greek_slinger, 40, 0, 0.526
stat_pri 12, 1, stone**, 100, 40, missile, simple, blunt, none, 25, 0.8
stat_pri_attr ap


type scythian archer
soldier eastern_foot_archer, 50, 0, 0.596
stat_pri 14, 2, pointed_stick2_250***, 250, 30, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr no

Now we can check the descr_projectile_new, which shows

*projectile bullet_360
accuracy_vs_units 0.46


**projectile stone
accuracy_vs_units 0.3


***projectile pointed_stick2_250
accuracy_vs_units 0.09

Also, if I remember right, lethality means nothing for missile weapons, the game just uses 1, whatever you put in the EDU.