Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

[Bobi_TWR]

Near to 0? Denied. Knights who trained in martial arts since young shouldn't suck at melee defence. It can be reduced when mounted, but no way to a very low level.
Melee attack delay? Now that's something to think about. What mod?

There are long polearms (halberds, voulges, bills) and poleaxes - different thing. 2 handed foot nobles in this mod doesn't have defensive formation unlike long polearms that have pikewall ability. But they cannot have shieldwall...because they have no shields. Hmmm, add squares? give spearwall? or create a new "brace" formation?


Of course. In Late Period gameplay, every unit are late period, even peasants are late period.
We're not subscribing to the idea of all rabbles->professional->elites unit roster; but few nobles + lots of peasants -> few nobles with more advanced equipment + lots of peasants with better training.



You're spot on with that roster inclusion suspicion.

The name of the mod is:Redux,easily the best balance mod in TW.Here is link http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...archtext=redux If you are interested maybe you could test some unit types in it and if you like it you could copy some stats/costs.
PS:The reason why im suggesting so drastic change is because shock cavalry in MK act more like melee cavalry and not real shock cav.Maybe it will be too arcady,but to me melee cavalry shouldnt deal damage on the charge but to be good in prolonged melee while shock cav should deal lots of damage in the charge but not be good in prolonged melee at all.

[Knight2708]

The name of the mod is:Redux,easily the best balance mod in TW.Here is link http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...archtext=redux If you are interested maybe you could test some unit types in it and if you like it you could copy some stats/costs.
PS:The reason why im suggesting so drastic change is because shock cavalry in MK act more like melee cavalry and not real shock cav.Maybe it will be too arcady,but to me melee cavalry shouldnt deal damage on the charge but to be good in prolonged melee while shock cav should deal lots of damage in the charge but not be good in prolonged melee at all.

The thing is that the melee/shock cav distinction doesnt actually make any sense. Generally (I'm sure there are some exceptions) no cavalry unit would be trained in only melee or shock tactics, especially as mounted warriors were generally the aristocratic elite in this time period and would be trained in a wide variety of martial arts and weapons. The important distinction really is between light, medium and heavy cavalry, with light and medium cavalry (with some exceptions) being classed as melee cavalry currently and heavy cavalry (once again with some exceptions) mostly being classed as shock cavalry currently. Imho the unit selection screen should be change to reflect this more important distinction, but changing the entire balance of the mod to reflect a ultimately completely illogical and unhistorical distinction between shock and melee cav makes little sense.

[Kjertesvein]

The thing is that the melee/shock cav distinction doesnt actually make any sense. Generally (I'm sure there are some exceptions) no cavalry unit would be trained in only melee or shock tactics, especially as mounted warriors were generally the aristocratic elite in this time period and would be trained in a wide variety of martial arts and weapons. The important distinction really is between light, medium and heavy cavalry, with light and medium cavalry (with some exceptions) being classed as melee cavalry currently and heavy cavalry (once again with some exceptions) mostly being classed as shock cavalry currently. Imho the unit selection screen should be change to reflect this more important distinction, but changing the entire balance of the mod to reflect a ultimately completely illogical and unhistorical distinction between shock and melee cav makes little sense.

Well, if we're thinking about what heavy is, then I'd argue it isn't very descriptive. If 'heavy' describe the weight, then it comes down to D&D categorization, which is bad. For example, an early suit of mail covering the whole body or a French configuration to counter the English strategem, is probably heavier than a later configuration of plate, in the right context that is.

Another entirely new classification is to divide them all into which horses they have. Each horse have different qualities in terms of speed and so forth. For example a very rough classification:

Sumpter (slow and sturdy, almost ponies in size, used by lighter militia level)

Courser (general purpose knightly horse used by English men-at-arms )

Frisian Destrier (high-end beasts, specialized for the charge)

Steppe (light and good endurance)

These things only alter the horses used, not the rider.

~Wille

[You_Guess_Who]

The name of the mod is:Redux,easily the best balance mod in TW.Here is link http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...archtext=redux If you are interested maybe you could test some unit types in it and if you like it you could copy some stats/costs.

Hmm, I gonna take a peek inside the mod. Some of the ideas are already implemented in MK, but we'll see what other ideas that are applicable.

Another entirely new classification is to divide them all into which horses they have. Each horse have different qualities in terms of speed and so forth. For example a very rough classification:

Sumpter (slow and sturdy, almost ponies in size, used by lighter militia level)

Courser (general purpose knightly horse used by English men-at-arms )

Frisian Destrier (high-end beasts, specialized for the charge)

Steppe (light and good endurance)

These things only alter the horses used, not the rider.

~Wille

Talking about very rough classifications, that's something MK have. There are 3 kind of horses in MK: horses with extra mass and charge speed, but low walk and run speed, specialized for shock cavalry (this is why charges are very powerful in MK); horses with middling stats, for melee cavalry; and very fast, very maneuverable horses with great acceleration, used for Horse Archers.

Stamina and Charge Bonus, are applied on unit basis instead on the mount.

If more mount type are needed, it can be added.

[lion8000]

Well even the heaviest full plate armors (used for battle) were around 30kg. Tournament armors could be heavier though.

[Påsan]

One thing that annoys me a bit is the notion that the steppe ponies were in any way faster than the european and middle eastern warhorses. More manuverable, sure, more enduring, maybe, but faster is a bit odd to me.

Also 30kilos is less than we carried around on long march in the army.

[lion8000]

Påsan "Also 30kilos is less than we carried around on long march in the army." Exactly

[Mattikush]

Possible unit stats error:
Some Venetian "Foot Confederati", plate infantry with two handed axes, seem to have a rather low morale and almost routed when I had them engaging two spear units from the front although they eventually won. I enjoy the combat and how guys aren't just killin plate armor units straight away and that plate armor has rather noticeable qualities in terms of surviving.

Possible Visual Glitch:
This could be from one of my graphic mods, when I play in spring there's like a red hue to the lighting. here is a screenshot.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Visarion]

What about the Andalusian?

[xalvissx]

1. March 12, 2017

2. Fire Lance Infantry, Golden Horde and Ilkhanate Horde

3. Increase accuracy, and maybe range or damage. If those are not possible, increase Melee Defense and Charge Bonus a little bit, and with it, cost, to better balance the unit.

4. The Fire Lance Infantry is something of a middleground between gunners and melee infantry. They have good armor, good melee attack and melee damage on par with high-end tier 1 melee units. They also have Expert Charge Defence. However, the fire lances do not do them any good, unlike for example the javelins the HRE, Iberian and Lithuanian melee and spear infantry have. The javelins at least have much higher damage to soften up the enemy before engaging in melee. The fire lances, however, have low damage, low range (only 35, you have to literally stand right in front of enemy units to use that), and NO accuracy. Even in point blank range the fire lances miss too much to be useful, and even if they somehow hit their target, the damage is too low to be of much use. They nevertheless have upsides, those are the morale damage they inflict (but the accuracy is too low that you also inflict morale damage to many of your units as well) and their melee stats (although with low melee defence they still get chewed up pretty fast, and they also cannot launch assault as they have low charge bonus). Of course, at 500 and tier 1, you cannot ask for too much, but now I don't think they would be used as for 50-100 less funds you get a unit of Turkic Archers or Persian Archers that can actually do some damage, and are capable of causing morale damage as well with fire arrows.

5. This video, from 21:06-21:16, you can see the low inaccuracy and damage of the Fire Lance Infantry in action, against some Aragonese Spear Infantry:

[xalvissx]

The video does not appear, I don't know why, but here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_1k9kqoaY4&t=2064s

[Vojtas007]

1. The date of the mod version when released. --- Mar 12 2017 (Last Update so far)
2. The unit(s) that is to be changed, and it's faction(s). --- Hussite Flailmen, Halberdiers Hussite (Both units are from the Bohemian roster).
3. What is the proposed change to the unit(s)? --- Halberdiers Hussite - Increase all stats because they are underpowered as hell, they cost 750 same as Bohemian regular High Halberdiers but they are heavily underpowered. Set the stats of this unit similar to Bohemian High Halberdiers. Now they are strong as Saxon Halberd Militia and they cost 300!
Hussite Flailman - Descrease price cca to 300 and add them a spear/pike wall ability. Now It is completely a rubbish, expensive and pointless unit :/

4. Explain why the change of the unit will benefit and improve gameplay. --- Well, the main reason is these units are not balanced at all, and I think that it is our duty to help the modders with their great mod and to warn the modders about unbalanced units. You can compare the stats of these units to other (almost same) units of other factionsy and then you can easily find out, how these units are underpowered. I shall provide some photos below.

5. Describe the situation. Describe the environment settings if possible. How can somebody else besides you recreate the scenario that resulted in your appeal to change the unit(s)? --- First time I had seen the stats of these 2 units, I knew immediately that the stats are not as good as almost same units of other factions. I thought it have to be a bug in statistics but once (because I am really versed in Hussite history) I made my army only from Hussite units and I was utterly destroyed in an online battle because of that.

6. (optional) Provide any screenshots or videos of the gameplay that supports the need of the change.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=927677070
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=927677030
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=927676961
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=927676929

Sry, that function ,,Insert Image,, does not work for me, somehow :/

[Caucasian Iberia]

"Also 30kilos is less than we carried around on long march in the army" yeap true. But it easier to walk with 30+ kilos for 30+km than fight without armor for 15 mins.

So fighting with 30 kilos is very, very hard.

We were running 20km every Tuesday but nobody was able to finish 4 rounds in martial art exams.

I dont think that there is any human who can fight with 30 kilos for more than 5 mins. Thats why Lamellar armor and Chain mail was much better than full plate armor even if safety was not as great as plate armor, but at least they could fight for much much longer.

[lion8000]

Nope, I don't think so.

[You_Guess_Who]

Fire Lance Infantry
Increase accuracy, and maybe range or damage. If those are not possible, increase Melee Defense and Charge Bonus a little bit, and with it, cost, to better balance the unit.

Noted. I'll increase the accuracy so they are capable of shooting to the right direction (as of now they sometimes even fail to shoot at the enemy's general direction!)

However, with the increased accuracy, I will decrease the actual damage of the projectile itself, as it was mostly a psychological weapon having minimum effectiveness against armour, unlike true guns. Remember it also shoots 5 projectile per shot. Armour, melee defense can be increased, so they'll be a capable spear unit as well.

Hussite Flailmen, Halberdiers Hussite

Noted.
However, it might not necessarily as you proposed. Hussites, as a religiously-motivated army mainly consisted of peasant, won't be as well-armed (their flails and scythes are repurposed farming tools). But this doesn't stop them to be incredibly effective as shown by history: So they might not have good type of armour, but they should be cheap with very high morale.

[xalvissx]

1. March 12, 2017

2. Generic Heavy Horse Archers and Light Horse Archers of Eastern factions (Georgia, Bulgaria, Nicaea etc.), Boyar Sons (Kievan Rus), Lithuanian Cavalry (Duchy of Lithuania)

3. Reduce the speed of the Heavy Horse Archers to be more in line with the like of Mongol Heavy Horse Archers; reduce the HHAs melee damage, and increase the damage and melee defence of the generic LHAs. Add skirmish mod for the Boyar Sons, increase their mass and charge bonus, and fix the issue with their Parthian Shot ability. Increase the speed of the Lithuanian cavalry.

4. The generic eastern Heavy Horse Archers are too powerful: They outclass even the like of Mongol Heavy Horse Archers, are much faster (130 speed compared to 90) with only a tiny bit less armor and melee defence, they also make the eastern Light Horse Archer redundant, as they are just as fast and have much superior stats in every other ways. With lower melee damage they can now only cause real damage in melee when they charge, and the Light Horse Archers, with higher melee damage and melee defence can stick a little bit longer in melee and cause some damage to the back of engaged infantry (they still have low armor and charge bonus so it even out).

Boyar Sons do not have skirmish mod, and although they have Parthian Shot, they can only shoot when they are standing still and not moving. All in all, similar to Crossbow Cavalry but with much less damage. They also do not have any mass and charge bonus apparently, as even light foot archers can stand still when charged by them and win the fight (they are still riding a huge horse, how the foot archers are not knocked down is a mystery for me)

Lithuania cavalry are too slow for their own good. I know they are not supposed to compete with the like of Kievan Rus and Golden Hordes in term of horse skirmishers, but right now they can't even move fast enough to avoid melee and shock cav of other factions, and their low armor and morale will cause them to rout if somebody even remotely looks at them funny. I'd say keep the low armor and morale, but increase speed so that they can have some use for the faction.

[You_Guess_Who]

Noted. Edit done, just wait until the next mod patch.

[xalvissx]

Noted. Edit done, just wait until the next mod patch.

Thanks I just want to ask, when will the next patch come out ? I also want to report that the portrait of the Persian Foot Archers (Late) of the Ilkhanate does not show properly. Can't wait for the next patch !

[Sagat]

Great work guys aside from lack of polish which is understandable, I've only had issues with played a few battles and I find my Teutonic Order Heavy Shock Cavalry charge into Medium Horse cavalry and literally have to wait about 5-10 seconds for the first guy archer to die, when in reality many should die in that initial hit, and even after a while they still barely win that battle...
Also even some crossbowmen I believe (can't remember if medium or heavy) but I've had instances where I charge into Crossbowmen with heavy shock cav and end up losing... this is on Hard battle difficulty...

Are you guys going after realism here or balance ? I've tested the battles in Normal difficulty and Hard difficulty, it seems too easy on Normal, yet Hard difficulty feels like Very Hard.

Another question as well, are there any alternate UI's, I find the one you made is far too busy for my taste anyway, although nicely done a lot of people prefer clean UI's..... thanks

[You_Guess_Who]

Great work guys aside from lack of polish which is understandable, I've only had issues with played a few battles and I find my Teutonic Order Heavy Shock Cavalry charge into Medium Horse cavalry and literally have to wait about 5-10 seconds for the first guy archer to die, when in reality many should die in that initial hit, and even after a while they still barely win that battle...
Also even some crossbowmen I believe (can't remember if medium or heavy) but I've had instances where I charge into Crossbowmen with heavy shock cav and end up losing... this is on Hard battle difficulty...

Are you guys going after realism here or balance ? I've tested the battles in Normal difficulty and Hard difficulty, it seems too easy on Normal, yet Hard difficulty feels like Very Hard.

Another question as well, are there any alternate UI's, I find the one you made is far too busy for my taste anyway, although nicely done a lot of people prefer clean UI's..... thanks

Some Teutonic Shock Cav have mistaken steed (uses light horse instead of heavy horse, that's why they're also faster)

Balance...that's need to be adressed.

What new UI? Artstudio made new UI, but that's for 1295 only, not the main 1212 mod.