Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

[Bobi_TWR]

1.Date of the mod:5/9/16
2.Beoduin Camel Riders
3.This unit cost 250 and have nearly double health than every unit in the mod!So the health must be reduced in order to fix it .
4.If the mod is played comp atm the most picked faction would be the Ayyubid Sultanate prob,because the cav mass damage is pretty OP.I tested 4 Camels vs 2 Bulgarian Heavy inf and 2 Bulgarian Heavy Spearmen and the camels won,so maybe reduce the mass damage of cavalry too?
5.http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=701715790

[Sint]

4.The Retinue and Yeoman Longbowmen seem pretty weak as their missile damage is pretty low (I think it's 45), normal high tier bowmen of other factions (Second Bulgarian Tsardom) got 60 missile damage. This seems kind of strange to me
because the English Longobowmen were pretty strong when you think of battles like Agincourt or Crécy.

Them being effectic doesn't mean they were able to just punch through armor.
Some videos with Dr. Tobias Capwell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uxHYQW2Nio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukvlZcxNAVY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yewwhjUYEPQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHqo4syIqD8

Well we also have to keep in mind that the range of the longbows far outclasses that of any other high cost bows.

Well no not really.

And the cheaper bows will be okay-ish to bring against western factions heavy armour.

This way non-western factions will still be able to use skirmisher against their western counterparts heavy armour and do damage to their heavy archers and crossbows - which is fair since non-western factions don't have crossbows and very heavy armoured infantry.

Well they wouldn't...watch the above vidoes and some quotes:

"the Franks were drawn up in front of the cavalry, stood firm as a wall, and every foot-soldier wore a vest of thick felt and a coat of mail so dense and strong that our arrows made no impression on them… I saw some with from one to ten arrows sticking in them, and still advancing at their ordinary pace without leaving the ranks."
Bahā’al-Dīn, "The Life of Saladin" (Ch. CXVII), in What Befell Sultan Yusuf, by Abu el-Mehasan Yusef ibn-Rafi ibn-Temun el-Asadi.

"…and whilst the Turks were fleeing before him, they (who shoot as well backwards as forwards) would cover him [Walter of Châtillon] with arrows. When he had driven them out of the village, he would pick out the arrows that were sticking all over him; and put on his coat-of-arms again… Then, turning round, and seeing that the Turks had come in at the other end of the street, he would charge them again, sword in hand, and drive them out. And this he did about three times in the manner I have described."
The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville, (Ch.XVII).

[Bobi_TWR]

1.Date of the mod 5/9/16
2.Patch list part 1
3.
Speed:It is rly weird that line/elite infantry have the same speed as skirmishers
so it is impossible to win with a kiting/skirmish build.
Suggestion:Rebalance the speed by giving lightly armored skirmishers 40 speed
med armored 35 speed and heavy armoured 32 speed
Also make Horse Skirmishers faster than melee/shock cavalry

Cavalry:This is one of the worst balanced things in this awesome mod.
Cavalry is not only strong as in vanilla Atilla but too tanky.
My suggestion about cav is:reduce the mass damage of cav by half(except knights and elite cav)
Rebalance health by giving cav health from 100 to 150 (150 will be knights and the most elite
cav of the eastern factions).Also make knights,elite cav(Gendarmes,Men at Arms) super expensive
(Knights retinue 1000,Men at Arms 1350,Gendarmes 1450).

Morale:This is maybe not so necessary as the others but here is my suggestion:
Lower Morale slightly and add morale penalties which emphasize casualties taken in the last 30 seconds

Skirmishers:
Replace the ammo stat with Accuracy,and make every projectile type with certain amount of ammo
(you might also remove the charge bonus stat and thus have ammo+accuracy,because charge is unimportant to skirmishers)

Spotting:
Add universal and more restrictive spotting distances(thus making a battle much more interesting)
300m in open,60m for scrub,30m for forest
4.I will be honest.The balance in the mod is not really good,maybe worse than vanilla Atilla.
So i would like to give you a huge list of changes that would balance it
PS:Gonna make Part 2 very soon(if you dislike my suggestions please tell me )

[Bobi_TWR]

1.Date of the mod 5/9/16
2.Patch list part 2
3.
Formations:
Add Precision shot and quick reload to mid tier,high and elite tier archers/Horse archers
Precision shot:+ 14 Accuracy -20 reload speed -20% speed
Quick Reload:+20 rate of fire -7 Accuracy
Duration:Both 30s
Add Rapid Advance to Skirm cav,light cav and maybe light foot skirmishers
+25% speed,+10% fatigue
Duration:7s
Add frensy to 2h elite axemen
Frensy:+10 melee base damage -5 melee defence
Duration:45s
Rebalance Shield Wall
Shield Wall: +21 shield defence +10% missile block chance +100% entity mass -7 melee defence
Rebalance Flying Wedge
Flying Wedge:+12 bonus vs cav -50% melee defence -100% missile block chance
Replace Shield wall with Spear wall(for spear infantry ofc)
Spear Wall: +200% entity mass +7 bonus vs cav +10 melee defence -7 melee attack
Rebalance pike wall
Pike wall:+20 bonus vs cav + 100% mass +21 melee attack -33 melee damage

Broken/Too Good Units:
Men at Arms(dismounted)
I tested men at Arms vs 2 elite 2h axes from the Ayubids
and 1 unit of men at arms destroyed 2 units of Mamluk Tabadariyah!
Here is a SS: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=724299825
My suggestion is to increase their cost to 1800 and give them the scare ability
Vlach Warriors/Vlach Heavy Warriors:This is prob the most effective unit in the entire game/mod
(also increase the melee attack/defence of Bulgarian Swordsmen because it is rly weird that missile units got better stats
than the line infantry)
These guys cost 350/450 and got access to shield wall/flying wedge which makes them extremely deadly to both infantry and cavalry
+ they got javelins so my suggestion about them is to increase their price by 100 and remove either flying wedge or shield wall.
Ayubid camels:
These units cost nearly nothing (250 or 350) and they got 300 hp more than even the most elite cav!
and because of the opness of the cav mass damage and tankiness of cav they are rly broken and must be nerfed
My suggestion:Reduce their health to 110 and give them resistance to fatigue + scare to horses.
This is it for now gonna update it when more units/factions are introduced
PS:A lot of the suggestions are inspired by AggonyDuck's balance mod for Atilla

[Påsan]

1.Date of the mod:5/9/16
2.Teutonic Men-At-Arms
3. Animation for this unit looks wrong. They are a polearm unit with pollaxes and are using the halberd animation. However due to their relatively short pollaxes compared to halberds the animation looks wonky. For example the unit is holding the weapon on the axe head when charging while most of the pole part is behind him. I'd suggest to use the two-handed animation instead similarly to the argonese late heavy infantry. It will improve how the unit looks on the battlefield.
4. The Teutonic men-at-arms will look better and using their weapon in a more realistic fashion. Fencing manuals and redactors use pollaxes as quarterstaff like manners rather than primarily stabbing. The two-handed animation will cover this better.
6. http://images.akamai.steamuserconten...A57C62EEA757C/

[Bobi_TWR]

This thread is for unit balance Quote:This is NOT a thread to discuss bugs, aesthetic issues, or errors in script!!!

[aqiltafad]

i just wanna say that a lot of unit not equal like very heavy infantry in roman expedition has 150 health like cavalry's health and others infantry just have 100-/+ health please fix it

[You_Guess_Who]

roman expedition

wut

What that have to do with MKTW 1212?

[Bobi_TWR]

he probably means that health values in MK are simillar to the last roman dlc for Atilla Total War (it adds the roman expedition)

[aqiltafad]

there is no ayyubid late period, and mamluk tabardariah is so weak but so expensive i hope that you increase mamluk's ability

[Påsan]

1. The date of the mod version when released.
Date of the mod:5/9/16
2. The unit(s) that is to be changed, and it's faction(s).
The Shield-Wall ability found on many sword and spear units.
3. What is the proposed change to the unit(s)?
Remove bonus vs infantry on shield wall ability. Possibly even include a debuff on attack damage for using it.
4. Explain why the change of the unit will benefit and improve gameplay.
Shield wall as it is now is overpowered, especially on high-era units with low attack damage. The shield wall is so powerful that it is always preferable to use it whenever possible granting both a massive defense boost and a big attack boost vs infantry. The result of this is that it is always better to shield wall and walk into an opponents units than charging the unit. It makes no sense that a unit should cause more damage in shield wall than it does when charging.

The mod will benefit by removing the offensive bonus on the shield wall so that players have to make a choice if they should use it or not, sacrificing offensive power for more defense. For now, and especially in siege battles it is a no brainer to use as its drawbacks are not proportional to the benefits. I believe this is caused due to the Attila values does not play well with the increased defense and lower attack in this mod. Shield wall was overpowered back in vanilla as well but it was not as apparent.
5. Describe the situation. Describe the environment settings if possible. How can somebody else besides you recreate the scenario that resulted in your appeal to change the unit(s)?
I just had a siege battle where a unit of sergeants (high) in shield wall got 700+ kills vs elite infantry including men at arms and late polearms. Sergeants are not a particularly powerful unit but in shield wall it can outlast the best infantry in the game despite being surrounded and outnumbered 7-1. This is because with the increased defense it also get massively improved offense. Another unit which benefits massively from shield wall is pavisiers. In shield wall they will stand and fight for a long time with few casualties despite being surrounded and rear charged by heavy shock cav, which is fine for a super-defensive unit if they did not dish out more damage than they are getting back thanks to the 10+ damage.

[Bobi_TWR]

Removing the bonus vs inf and not adding additional melee defence/shield defence will make it kinda useless and if it get debuff on attack it will be the most useless formation in the mod.

[Påsan]

Disagree, you'll still get a lot more holding power so it will be well worth using. Just a slightly more situational rather than all the time.

[Bobi_TWR]

A lot more holding power?You get only 15 melee defence and you got no charge bonus so your unit will get slaughtered .

[Påsan]

15 melee defence and +60% mass is alot. Which translates into holding power. One sergeant unit getting 700+ kills vs Men-at-arms and other infantry however is just broken.

[Kjertesvein]

Opinion: Units with plate should have missile block chance. Think of it as an invisible shield stat. Think of the children and poleaxe units. Yay or nay? Do you like it? Why or why not?

Justification: Plate armour was constructed to give maximum protection in front of the soldier and knightly shields were redundant as we see the introduction of early coat of plates (See here how the knightly shield slowly disappears from tomb effigies around the 1340s).

~Wille

[Bobi_TWR]

One searjent getting 700 kills is literally impossible...The only way would be if your opponent tries to Pullthrough and not fight.My proposal for shieldwall is:+21 shield defence + 100% mass + 10% missile block chance -7 melee defence or -7 melee attack.

[Bobi_TWR]

I think that with that tiny shield it's a bit unrealistic to give them good missile block chance (i am talking about foot men at arms). And they are a bit OP so buffing them doesn't make sense . I think that they could get a larger shield or if it's historically inaccurate they could get a massive base armour increase BUT plate armoured units must get a huge price increase too because it is rly common to see plate armoured units fighting 13-14th century troops lol

[Slytacular]

I would like to see an extra buff of missile defense for plate armoured units. It does seem ridiculous to see units wearing armour designed specifically to reflect and skim off projectiles to die from 13th century bowmen.

[Kjertesvein]

Hmm.

~Wille