Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

[Baron279]

1.The date of the mod version:5/9/16
2.Longbowmen of England
3.Must be better stats. At least the high tier Longbowmen.
4.The Retinue and Yeoman Longbowmen seem pretty weak as their missile damage is pretty low (I think it's 45), normal high tier bowmen of other factions (Second Bulgarian Tsardom) got 60 missile damage. This seems kind of strange to me
because the English Longobowmen were pretty strong when you think of battles like Agincourt or Crécy.

[AlexiosThe1st]

1.The date of the mod version:5/9/16
2.Longbowmen of England
3.Must be better stats. At least the high tier Longbowmen.
4.The Retinue and Yeoman Longbowmen seem pretty weak as their missile damage is pretty low (I think it's 45), normal high tier bowmen of other factions (Second Bulgarian Tsardom) got 60 missile damage. This seems kind of strange to me
because the English Longobowmen were pretty strong when you think of battles like Agincourt or Crécy.

Well we also have to keep in mind that the range of the longbows far outclasses that of any other high cost bows.

[AlexiosThe1st]

What if spears get massive mass buff or expert charge defence buff so that if cavalry charge them the cav will die(a lot of spears don't even have expert charge defence like Bulgarian Heavy Spearmen).And about the slow cav fights i think that it requires less micro and is too easy to destroy knights with terrible cav + spears(bulgarian cav+vlach spears totally destroy man at arms).Just my Opinion tho

This is more or less what I'm suggesting Perhaps they only get this buff or a partial buff when not moving? Spears running or hit from the flank/behind should get steam rolled just like any other infi. The abilities of the spears should also get looked at; perhaps giving all spears (excepting maybe militia) the "pike wall" ability and giving that serious buffs against cav. While higher tier spears get the shield wall ability to used against infantry.

As for the long cav fights; if men at arms can simply stomp other cav very quickly, what reason has anyone to bring lesser cav? We're then back to Med 2 where everyone and their mother has 4 Feudal knights or other heavy cav. Light cav or lower tier cav was almost never seen in multiplayer, with the exception of border horse and hobliars used by creative players. This mod has so many amazing units with amazing models; it would be a shame to see the same old heavy knight unit spam and be remarkable to see a successful Rus or Bulgarian build.

[Bobi_TWR]

This is more or less what I'm suggesting Perhaps they only get this buff or a partial buff when not moving? Spears running or hit from the flank/behind should get steam rolled just like any other infi. The abilities of the spears should also get looked at; perhaps giving all spears (excepting maybe militia) the "pike wall" ability and giving that serious buffs against cav. While higher tier spears get the shield wall ability to used against infantry.

As for the long cav fights; if men at arms can simply stomp other cav very quickly, what reason has anyone to bring lesser cav? We're then back to Med 2 where everyone and their mother has 4 Feudal knights or other heavy cav. Light cav or lower tier cav was almost never seen in multiplayer, with the exception of border horse and hobliars used by creative players. This mod has so many amazing units with amazing models; it would be a shame to see the same old heavy knight unit spam and be remarkable to see a successful Rus or Bulgarian build.

Good Points

[lion8000]

I don't think that this point is good because in this mod they are trying to make the rosters accurate as possible. Maybe only France and England could have knights and every other nation will have only it's unique units. Why should a nation like Bulgaria be weaker than every other only to be unique. (Excuse me for my bad English).

[scharny]

1. The date of the mod version when released.
Updated version: 05/09/2016
2. The unit(s) that is to be changed, and it's faction(s).
All missile unites. (only the bow part is done so far in the excel sheet)
3. What is the proposed change to the unit(s)?
See attached excel sheets.
4. Explain why the change of the unit will benefit and improve gameplay.
See attached excel sheets.
5. Describe the situation. Describe the environment settings if possible. How can somebody else besides you recreate the scenario that resulted in your appeal to change the unit(s)?
By useing mathmatics.
6. (optional) Provide any screenshots or videos of the gameplay that supports the need of the change.
See attached excel sheets.

[You_Guess_Who]

What do you think about differentiation of range between standard shots and heavy shots? The idea is making the heavy shot having less range, but more accurate.

[AlexiosThe1st]

I don't think that this point is good because in this mod they are trying to make the rosters accurate as possible. Maybe only France and England could have knights and every other nation will have only it's unique units. Why should a nation like Bulgaria be weaker than every other only to be unique. (Excuse me for my bad English).

Well to start nations other than France and England had what we may call knights (or soldiers/statesmen that fulfilled the same role). There's no reason, to my mind, why England and France should only have knights. Secondly, I think you're misunderstanding my suggestion. I'm not suggesting that Rus and Bulgaria get western style knights to make them competitive, I'm saying the cav fight should remain long, so factions like Bulgaria that don't have men at arms can use lesser cav and spears to beat heavy knights. I'm also not suggesting that Bulgaria should be weaker, I'm all for balanced factions. What I'm saying is that I would love to see more atypical builds that depart from the meta. There are so many amazingly good unit models in this game, it suck to see the meta devolve to the point where we ever see only a few. (Almost) Every unit should have a viable role when used correctly.

[scharny]

You_Guess_Who I have spend all night thinking about how to best balance skirmishers.
What you want from balancing is that every type of skirmishers are worth bringing in different situations.

Therefore the easiest way to balance the game would be to:
Change 48 damage group to 60 damage (0 AP)
Decrease their range to the same as their eastern counter parts.
Increase reload speed to 26.
+5-10 against infantry
Heavy shot should increase range to excellent range (their current range) and decrease reload speed to around 30-32. And do no chance in damage.
--- That way western factions bows will be good against non-western more lightly armoured units. And the cheaper bows will be okay-ish to bring against western factions heavy armour.

Crossbows should be changed so their:
reload speed is around 31-35
increase their damage to 50 normal dmg and 40 AP
+ 10 against infantry
Remove heavy shot, realistically the ability makes no sense for crossbows.
--- That way crossbows will work as a anti heavy armoured infantry unit - but at the same time their low range makes them vulnerable to archers.
Remove the 70 dmg group for crossbows and just give these elite crossbows units higher armour so that they can take a beating from archers.
So bringing elite crossbows is a choice between survivability or fast dmg.

Non-western factions (all those who have archers from 60 damage group)
Increase reload speed to 26
increase normal damage to 52
Increase AP damage to 26
+ 10 against infantry
That way standard shot just have the properties of heavy shot.
And heavy shot should be changed so it increases range to excellent as well and then decrease reload speed to around 29-30.

This way non-western factions will still be able to use skirmisher against their western counterparts heavy armour and do damage to their heavy archers and crossbows - which is fair since non-western factions don't have crossbows and very heavy armoured infantry.

Guns should be

changed so
their damage will be increased (uncertain how much)
reload speed decreased (uncertain how much) (you have to remember guns can't shoot loop their shots over other units, so they have to out flank and have a clear line of sight - and they have very low range)
Remove spread out formation.
--- This way gun units will be able to deal lot of damage to enemy heavy armoured units if they manage to outflank.. But they will be very vulnerable to skirmish fire.

Possible bug with guns, their accuracy seems very bad compared to other skirmishers. Seems like they work like artillery´s accuracy? - that will say very un-precise at maximum range but precise a minimum range.



This way all types of skirmishers will each have their own purpose.

[scharny]

*

So bringing elite crossbows is a choice between survivability and price.

[scharny]

But no i don't like your idé "What do you think about differentiation of range between standard shots and heavy shots? The idea is making the heavy shot having less range, but more accurate." since it will increase the incentive too much to bring archers over crossbows.

[Ciruelo]

But no i don't like your idé "What do you think about differentiation of range between standard shots and heavy shots? The idea is making the heavy shot having less range, but more accurate." since it will increase the incentive too much to bring archers over crossbows.

Crossbow should have more accuracy and more damage but less range and less fire rate. The best way to balance is to mimic reality.

[scharny]

*

Non-western factions (all those who have archers from 60 damage group)
***Decrease reload speed to 26

[KAM 2150]

Crossbow should have more accuracy and more damage but less range and less fire rate. The best way to balance is to mimic reality.

Well, that also depends on the crossbows as in late medieval most quality crossbows would outrange most bows and if I remember certain Italian crossbows would outrange even longbows by a long distance. Of course for the sake of gameplay, crossbows should have less range then bows.

[scharny]

***For Guns:
reload speed increased (improved)

[Bobi_TWR]

You_Guess_Who I have spend all night thinking about how to best balance skirmishers.
What you want from balancing is that every type of skirmishers are worth bringing in different situations.

Therefore the easiest way to balance the game would be to:
Change 48 damage group to 60 damage (0 AP)
Decrease their range to the same as their eastern counter parts.
Increase reload speed to 26.
+5-10 against infantry
Heavy shot should increase range to excellent range (their current range) and decrease reload speed to around 30-32. And do no chance in damage.
--- That way western factions bows will be good against non-western more lightly armoured units. And the cheaper bows will be okay-ish to bring against western factions heavy armour.

Crossbows should be changed so their:
reload speed is around 31-35
increase their damage to 50 normal dmg and 40 AP
+ 10 against infantry
Remove heavy shot, realistically the ability makes no sense for crossbows.
--- That way crossbows will work as a anti heavy armoured infantry unit - but at the same time their low range makes them vulnerable to archers.
Remove the 70 dmg group for crossbows and just give these elite crossbows units higher armour so that they can take a beating from archers.
So bringing elite crossbows is a choice between survivability or fast dmg.

Non-western factions (all those who have archers from 60 damage group)
Increase reload speed to 26
increase normal damage to 52
Increase AP damage to 26
+ 10 against infantry
That way standard shot just have the properties of heavy shot.
And heavy shot should be changed so it increases range to excellent as well and then decrease reload speed to around 29-30.

This way non-western factions will still be able to use skirmisher against their western counterparts heavy armour and do damage to their heavy archers and crossbows - which is fair since non-western factions don't have crossbows and very heavy armoured infantry.

Guns should be

changed so
their damage will be increased (uncertain how much)
reload speed decreased (uncertain how much) (you have to remember guns can't shoot loop their shots over other units, so they have to out flank and have a clear line of sight - and they have very low range)
Remove spread out formation.
--- This way gun units will be able to deal lot of damage to enemy heavy armoured units if they manage to outflank.. But they will be very vulnerable to skirmish fire.

Possible bug with guns, their accuracy seems very bad compared to other skirmishers. Seems like they work like artillery´s accuracy? - that will say very un-precise at maximum range but precise a minimum range.



This way all types of skirmishers will each have their own purpose.

Insanely Good Idea.Thank you for sharing this awesome idea!Let's hope that the devs will put your idea in the mod in the next patch

[Bobi_TWR]

1.Date of the mod:5/9/16
2.Pavisiers
3.Reduce their missile block chance or remove the Square Ability
4.I saw some newbies to spam Pavisiers and just go in square(they dismount the general and put him in the centre of a square)
And Pavisiers are so tanky that it is really annoying to fight this spam(It will take minimum 20 minutes)
This is super annoying because it's like fighting a super tanky noob box
5. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=685693698
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=685693168
In this battle my opponent lost patience and conceded defeat before i got a draw but others might not be lucky as me

[lion8000]

AlexiosThe1st your right, your points are good. "Maybe only France and England could have knights and every other nation will have only it's unique units." this was actually ironical. The Bulgarian nobles since around 13th-14th century have Italian style of armor, so they were fully equipped as knights.

[scharny]

Finished my excel sheet comparing current skrimisher units with each other..

In the excel sheets i have also included the changes i would like to see

[Bobi_TWR]

1.Date of the mod:5/9/16
2.Light/Med/Heavy Horse Archers
3.Make the lighter Horse Archers faster than the Heavier Horse Archers
4.Right Now Heavy Horse Archers have the same speed as med/light horse archers (125)
And there isn't any need to bring lighter horse archers because the more armoured and tanky horse archers have the same speed