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Thread: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 18)

  1. #1

    Default Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 18)

    Athens Arises: Trip Report

    Few basic things:
    • Campaign: Hard (usual statement about VH Campaign bug)
    • Battles: Very Hard
    • This is the "Athens has no treasury" version


    I will pretty much use any trick I feel like except:
    • Will try to avoid recruiting or adopting/marrying-in/man-of-the-houring any more family members (this does mean having a small roster of Generals)
    • Unit recruitment will be from Athenai only unless it is really unique units which aren't there in any form, then they must be trained and brought to Athenai for "training"



    Sightseeing List
    • Alexandria
    • Amasia
    • Antioch
    • Athens Mine!
    • Babylon
    • Carthage
    • Corinth Turn 1
    • Ephesus
    • Gergovia (used as Celtic capital cities)
    • Halicarnassus
    • Jerusalem
    • Memphis
    • Olympia Turn 1
    • Pantikapaion
    • Pella Turn 6
    • Pergamon Turn 26
    • Rhodes
    • Rome
    • Sarmizegetusa
    • Seleucia
    • Sparta Turn 3
    • Thessolonica Turn 7
    Last edited by Alavaria; October 03, 2016 at 04:27 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    Combined Chapter List and Campaign Diary:
    Last edited by Alavaria; October 03, 2016 at 04:26 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    Ch 1: Encircling Sparta



    Our rise began in Year 1, with a blitz campaign aimed at cutting off any possible support that Sparta might still have. Our Lady instructed us to began by crushing Thebes, which was done swiftly. There isn't much to say about the battle other than it was a shape of future battles to come.

    Our Greek Akontistai, Greek Heavy Peltasts and Greek Archers waited until the enemy was engaged before flanking them and engaging from the rear. Their missiles were devastating, leaving the enemy devastated.




    Korinthos was next to fall to us, after a brief struggle on the field. The same tactics were employed, and the Hoplites of Corinth fell for them in the same way. By the way, after some consideration, we are likely to not be continuing use and therefore training/equipping of hoplites.

    It is time to move on with the times, which means Levy Pikemen and Thureophoroi are likely to be our infantry.




    Argos surrendered to us after seeing the momentum of our armies, who had rolled over the citizenry of Thebes and Korinithos without slowing down. In part this is because we took only minor losses, despite having won two major battles.

    The reason is simple, enemies die (and break) much faster when attacked in the rear by missile troops than in traditional straight-up melee combat. Thus we can preserve our strength provided there is enough ammunition...




    Seeing the way our tide was rising, Olympia needed only a show of force to determine that supporting us was the practical option. By the way, the force of a massive (120-strong) Greek General's Bodyguard is nothing to laugh at, they are definitely a menace.

    Athenian Marines as swordsmen obviously fare badly against them, but hoplites, too, frequently abandon their dory in order to use swords. Another reason to switch to the Thureophoroi, who have no sword, as they instead use javelin and spear.



    With the economies of Athenai, Thebes, Korinthos, Argos and Olympia combined, we are now able to support this large campaign group (which among other things includes 3 units of Athenian Epilektoi and a very large body of Hoplites of Athens)

    We need to have an actual surplus to use in construction projects and new recruitment, though, simply being able to pay our current forces isn't enough for our True Rise.




    For now we shall wait, however. There is need of a couple more things to secure our victory over Sparta first, but then....
    Last edited by Alavaria; May 08, 2016 at 07:31 PM.

  4. #4

  5. #5

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintillius View Post
    Canno wait to see you fighting the Romans =).
    Actually I am contemplating if I should strangle them in their cradle as it were. I probably won't as there's nothing particularly great in Italy, and I might as well let them try to get the reforms (AI can, though it is hard or something).




    But if experience is anything to go by, fighting Romans will be very boring and just consist of shots of Romans being shot in the back by slingers, or being dead after being shot in the back by slingers.
    Last edited by Alavaria; May 07, 2016 at 05:17 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    "there's nothing particularly great in Italy"
    B-but I am playing the Romans. Italy is the center of the world! It houses the greatest city in history - perhaps in nearby future.

    You can also try to take Massale and colonise the Mediterrean area.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    North and North-west of Macedon's area are things like Gold and Wheat, which are the greatest. Italy doesn't have either of these, just scripted Roman stacks appearing from the air.

    I might actually try aggressively depopulating Italy until it's left with just a bunch of 400-population settlements, but that seems like a lot of depopulating, and who wants to sack settlements repeatedly just for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintillius View Post
    B-but I am playing the Romans.
    Romans get a magical tax bonus in Italy, check your Roman Culture building (might be the governor building). This is actually where dvk's balancing trick comes in as when you upgrade your Large Towns into Cities your income will probably take a serious hit.

    For other factions (eg: Athens) this doesn't happen as pretty much every single settlement is just always at a negative tax bonus so it doesn't matter.
    Last edited by Alavaria; May 07, 2016 at 06:07 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    Nice start to the campaign! Just wondering, haven't you ever considered keeping the structure of your army a bit more historically accurate, just to make it more fun, instead of tormenting everyone with those hordes of slingers?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    Nice! I really like how dvk is truly controlling every aspect of the game; taxes, population, trade, recruitment, building and more.

    So slingers are actually useful against elite if you put them behind such troops?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintillius View Post
    Nice! I really like how dvk is truly controlling every aspect of the game; taxes, population, trade, recruitment, building and more.
    There's a lot I could say about that, but really, uh here:
    • Taxes: II'm basically going to be just focusing on the tax rate. For pretty much all settlements (certainly City+) I'll ignore tax-bonus focused buildings, eg: Tax line, higher market upgrades, industry line, trade route line, glass-industry line, etc
    • Population: The population reduction building is a bit of a tossup, might be useful. The population increasing one (and the wells-water line) are massive sledgehammers. Getting populations to 216,000 is basically a sort of exploit and only doable in a few cases, or with a ton of building, it's essentially just for fun.
    • Trade: Intended to be very restricted. Generally go for Ports and Roads (plus level 1 of the trade temple, why not). Now you can build Highways on Large Cities (RS2 required Huge, I think) so I'll be making a Highway mess for fun.
    • Recruitment: Yeah the AoR is great. Though I'll only be very selectively using it. Note that the requirements for the merc building mean sometimes you can build it without building your own barracks. Also the AI may have built it for you, which means you can just pull stacks of out a settlement right after taking it. Yes, I've done this is Sparta campaign. It is amusing.
    • Building: Yeah I, uh, build buildings.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quintillius View Post
    So slingers are actually useful against elite if you put them behind such troops?
    It's pretty much the best way to kill any troops, but for elite heavy infantry it's nearly the only way unless you enjoy losing horsemen constantly to... the enemy's backs.


    Quote Originally Posted by seleukos99 View Post
    Just wondering, haven't you ever considered keeping the structure of your army a bit more historically accurate, just to make it more fun, instead of tormenting everyone with those hordes of slingers?
    No, don't wonder. Historically accurately speaking Athens should be some sort of pawn of Macedon's and then get owned by Rome later on so not even in the big picture sense.

    Actually, this is more fun for me. Admittedly if I will post about it the responses of people to it are also a factor, but you know what was never amusing for anyone? The RS1 battle of 70 units of militia hoplites vs a Roman stack. Something like that would take hours on triple speed in RS2/III.

    In case you're wondering I have checked, and it seems most big fights are or might as well be, inside a settlement. There's nothing accurate about the RTW settlement fights. A sneak peek at how the war against Macedon goes :
    Spoiler for It is a settlement fight

    Storywise I don't even know, the "taking over the world by immediately assaulting 198 settlements with siege ballista" is a bit odd. Same for "the strength of Rome was all destroyed in a series of fort assault battles" or whoever.

    Strategically speaking, the real interesting part will be when adventuring far inland (so Dacia/Germania for example) as moving troops from Athenai to the front will become very slow. Of course, using boat tricks, moving to anyplace with a port will be very fast, provided the infrastructure is in place... unlike with the actual Athenian empire though, the speed of moving troops via sea is capped, so in fact one could just go on a coastal conquering spree and reinforce Germania areas from the north side where there are ports, provided you own Italy and Spain and can go all around there...
    Last edited by Alavaria; May 08, 2016 at 07:20 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    Thanks for the info . I used my slingers on elite troops and they didn't kill anyone =(! Is their range by the way historical?

    Have you considered to install my submod improved UI? It replaces the scroll texture by a much prettier one.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...0&goto=newpost

  12. #12

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintillius View Post
    I used my slingers on elite troops and they didn't kill anyone =(!
    It basically has to be in the back, so that you bypass the Shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintillius View Post
    Is their range by the way historical?
    Uh, yeah I guess? I don't think they're supposed to be that lethal at max range though. RTW doesn't modify the lethality of missiles, so somehow these pebbles will go through your bronze cuirass even if it was shot from across the map, same as if it was point blank.

    The slingers are most effective point blank though, FYI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintillius View Post
    Have you considered to install my submod improved UI? It replaces the scroll texture by a much prettier one.
    Since looking at it, the screenshots of the scroll texture look pretty bad on my screen, probably not.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    I'll do some tests with the slingers then. But I am fighting nations with cavalry currently flanking the enemy with slingers isn't really that good idea.

    Uh, yeah I guess? I don't think they're supposed to be that lethal at max range though. RTW doesn't modify the lethality of missiles, so somehow these pebbles will go through your bronze cuirass even if it was shot from across the map, same as if it was point blank.

    The slingers are most effective point blank though, FYI.
    Their range is even longer than of my ballista's haha.

    Since looking at it, the screenshots of the scroll texture look pretty bad on my screen, probably not.
    Do you have custom bloom effect enabled?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintillius View Post
    I'll do some tests with the slingers then. But I am fighting nations with cavalry currently flanking the enemy with slingers isn't really that good idea.
    Depends what cavalry, if it's cavalry without shields (or with only small shields) you should shoot them straight up. But a lot depends on how you approach it, I've literally killed all the factions with this (though on RS2) so it's not that difficult. Once you get used to it anyway, the way AI reacts depends on what units you are using as well, I suppose.

    Dealing with cavalry-heavy enemies is much easier if the army is in a settlement or a fort. You have to take anywhere from 180 to 198 settlements so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintillius View Post
    Do you have custom bloom effect enabled?
    Not on my internet browser, at least.
    Last edited by Alavaria; May 08, 2016 at 05:20 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 2)

    Ch 2: The Final Battle



    Our bed-ridden Faction Leader died in Athens, too early to see victory over the historic enemy Sparta. However, this did not disrupt our campaign plans as he was, as mentioned, bed-ridden already and had no intention of even joining the campaign. While our new Faction Leader is only 17 years old, he is accompanied by an experienced hand (whose son will soon come of age as well).

    Deukalos had taken up a defensive position close to Sparte and just recieved an updated roster of missile troops. Rather than javelins or bow & arrow, our Greek Slingers would deliver Armor Piercing shots at an extreme 360 range. And they were very easy on the budget.




    Regardless, Year 1 drew to an end. The Spartans decided that, as their walls were not their little wooden fence but their men, they would bring their walls to us, rather than hide behind their walls. Despite amusing word games, we had the defensive position on high ground.

    However, the real factor to consider is that General Panares decided to attack with his portion of the forces, oddly enough before Agesipolis III arrived with additional troops to take command. This splitting of their otherwise par-with-us forces would make the fight substantially easier for us.




    Panares prepared his attack in a standard manner. On our right, Sparta's elite Skiritai screened a unit of heavy Thorakitai, which were escorted by Ekdromoi Hoplites. On our left, a unit of Thureophoroi supported heavy Metoikoi Hoplites. And taking the critical center was Sparta's most modern heavy pike phalanx.

    Regardless of this, though, they were badly outnumbered and their pikemen were not that great in number. As a result, we held back our Epilektoi in reserve, rather than putting them in the line (which the Spartans had expected on our right, hence their heavy lineup there).




    While frontline units clashed, we found ourselves with a free hand on the flanks. On both sides, we began pushing - our right saw the Epilektoi going into action, with the left being pushed by Athenian Marines and our two Generals' Bodyguard, all escorting some slingers for flexibility, of course.

    By the time Agesipolis III appeared with Sparta's first (and only?) unit of heavy cavalry, his bodyguard, he was promptly shot down from slingers on either flank. History will never know how he intended for the battle to be fought, only that his second-in-command lost it.




    Without leadership, the Spartan Hoplites immediately spotted a unit of our Epilektoi (on our right side) and attacked them directly. This was quite fortunate for us. The center had been broken through by the Spartan heavy phalanx, but with the other infantry on either flank being engaged on the line (or already having been peeled off by our flank actions), this would go unexploited by the Spartans.

    Because we had already broken some of Sparta's units by this point, the freed-up line units were able to cover the gap and engage the Spartan pikemen behind our lines while still pinning any remaining Spartan infantry on the line. Which didn't last long, especially after they realize the Spartan Hoplites had been shot apart and their Spartan Heavy Phalanx pike unit had simply disappeared.




    The end of the Spartan pikemen was not surprising:

    Quote Originally Posted by RS description
    A Very tough outfit it will be destroyed before fleeing.

    Spartan phalanx on the mountaintop fought until it was destroyed.
    Like with the Spartan Hoplite phalanx, the Spartan Heavy Phalanx was shot to pieces in isolation from any possible support.




    We ourselves took some losses, heroes all. But this definitely definitively broke the back of Sparta's military machine. Most of the rest of their military-age homoioi were felled in battle.

    They did not surrender, as far as we can tell... a corpse shot in the back cannot tell us much, other than that missiles are quite effective.




    An excellent result. Never fear, we can draw upon enough resources to maintain our strength...
    Last edited by Alavaria; May 08, 2016 at 07:45 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    No, don't wonder. Historically accurately speaking Athens should be some sort of pawn of Macedon's and then get owned by Rome later on so not even in the big picture sense.
    Well, I think you might a bit underestimate the importance of Athens. Even though they were not as strong in the Hellenistic period as they were in the Classical Age they still remained politically, culturally and ideologically the beating hear of the Hellenistic world, plus of course they continued to maintain a large fleet. In my view that's what's so appealing about the Hellenistic Age. Even though it was the Hellenistic monarchs that very the driving force of that time, there were lots of other, either independent or semi-independent, political entities, of which every single one played its own game. And Athens were no doubt one of those that mattered most. That's for example very well reflected in the relationship between the city of Athens and Antiochus III of Seleucid dynasty, or later on in the Roman period when in the reign of Hadrian, Athens became unofficially the second capital city of the Empire and enjoyed the acts of emperor's munificence to an equal extent as did the city of Rome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Actually, this is more fun for me. Admittedly if I will post about it the responses of people to it are also a factor, but you know what was never amusing for anyone? The RS1 battle of 70 units of militia hoplites vs a Roman stack. Something like that would take hours on triple speed in RS2/III.
    Ohhh... you definitely have a point here. The selection of AI armies it is now so much better than it was before. Fighting hordes of militia hoplites units was no fun at all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post



    An excellent result. Never fear, we can draw upon enough resources to maintain our strength...
    Gosh, you are seriously running riot with those slingers. I must admit, though, that I get pretty much the same results flanking enemy armies with cavalry units. Speaking of, I've noticed that you barely use any cavalry at all. How do you cope with keeping the enemy cavalry away from your light infantry? Don't you have too many enemy units avoiding being captured at the end of battle? Normally it is only the horseman units that can chase them effectively.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by seleukos99 View Post
    Well, I think you might a bit underestimate the importance of Athens...
    Sweeping generalization made in response to ??? If you can't tell, it was supposed to responded seriously to. See also: exact same argument about Sparta taking up the entire world.

    Quote Originally Posted by seleukos99 View Post
    Fighting hordes of militia hoplites units was no fun at all!
    No, I was using the hordes of militia hoplites. Rome still uses tons of people with little swords, though sometimes they use red shields or white ones with a red X on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by seleukos99 View Post
    Gosh, you are seriously running riot with those slingers. I must admit, though, that I get pretty much the same results flanking enemy armies with cavalry units.
    You can in some cases. Not in settlements or forts though. Not on awkward slopes or whenever the AI just decides they don't want to properly use their lances or don't have enough space or whatever.

    But mostly because of settlements and forts. The army is not optimized to fight field battles, because it will usually be fighting in settlements. To put things in perspective, most enemies killed (in the campaign in general) will die in a relatively small corner of a settlement.

    Quote Originally Posted by seleukos99 View Post
    Speaking of, I've noticed that you barely use any cavalry at all. How do you cope with keeping the enemy cavalry away from your light infantry?
    The light infantry can handle horse pretty well, it's a matter of mindset and knowing how the AI tends to respond. 2 units of horse can do a lot of work if you use them appropriately, but...

    Horsemen are a bit more bottled up in a settlement or fort. In particular actually if you're fighting those horsearcher-spamming factions, the best way to deal with them is when they are in a settlement or fort. Then just throw lots of spearmen at them if you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by seleukos99 View Post
    Don't you have too many enemy units avoiding being captured at the end of battle? Normally it is only the horseman units that can chase them effectively.
    Not in settlements or forts. People always seem to miss this campaign side and think too much about field battles, though true enough in the Sparta campaign I did fight a bunch of field battles. I wanted to fight that Spartan stack inside their settlement, they attacked me instead so it got messier.

    I'll point out that if you're taking your time breaking enemy units, then 2 units of horse can do a lot of work if you use them appropriately but if you're already flanking, you can just shoot routers in the back and it works pretty well also.


    Slightly more serious answer:
    Enemies tend to die faster with slingers, but due to various things they tend to not rout (though they die faster). Generally it's lower-tier units that rout early on, while the elite ones hang on even after everyone else is dead (including the general). As a result, if anyone escapes it's usually bad units, and even then they may rally and just return to die if they're a unit at half strength.
    Last edited by Alavaria; May 11, 2016 at 12:57 PM.

  18. #18
    Domesticus
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    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 2)

    Yo Alavaria, did you manage to switch this campaign to 1 turn, like you did with Syracuse some time back?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold View Post
    Yo Alavaria, did you manage to switch this campaign to 1 turn, like you did with Syracuse some time back?
    Syracuse had 1-turn files, Athens does not.

  20. #20
    ~Seleukos.I.Nikator~'s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Athens Arises: Trip Report (Ch 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Sweeping generalization made in response to ??? If you can't tell, it was supposed to responded seriously to. See also: exact same argument about Sparta taking up the entire world.
    Not really sure what you mean by that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    You can in some cases. Not in settlements or forts though. Not on awkward slopes or whenever the AI just decides they don't want to properly use their lances or don't have enough space or whatever.
    In some battle situations the use of cavalry is indeed restricted. I must admit, though, that I often find them useful in the settlement/fort battles, as well. Obviously, I wouldn't really take as many of them as to the field battle, yet still... The selection of units I normally choose with regard to the faction I currently play, but normally there would be around 4-6 cavalry units within one stack. In the siege, however, 2 or 3 would completely suffice, yet if put to a good use they would definitely shorten the battle time and limit the casualties on your side.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Not in settlements or forts. People always seem to miss this campaign side and think too much about field battles, though true enough in the Sparta campaign I did fight a bunch of field battles. I wanted to fight that Spartan stack inside their settlement, they attacked me instead so it got messier.
    I think that also depends on your style. Overall I play a larger proportion of field battles but that's also because I would often wait for enemy forces to leave the settlement or attack an enemy stack that approached its settlement so as to engage the garrison units while they're reinforcing the field army.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Enemies tend to die faster with slingers, but due to various things they tend to not rout (though they die faster). Generally it's lower-tier units that rout early on, while the elite ones hang on even after everyone else is dead (including the general). As a result, if anyone escapes it's usually bad units, and even then they may rally and just return to die if they're a unit at half strength.
    Yes, I've noticed that, as well. But that's also why I like to do the job with cavalry. They are very effective not only in flanking or chasing the enemy units, but most significantly in breaking their morale. That, yet again, shortens the battle time and limits the casualties among my infantry units. Though, since from what I see here you are playing mostly 0-turn campaigns the fact of taking casualties is probably not as important for you as it's for me in 1-turn campaigns.

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