Marian Reforms for All!

[TFCAliarcy]

So I was think about the Marian reforms and the various military reforms for other factions along with the manpower system. Then I thought of something, why not have the Marian reforms triggered by having a certain percentage of you manpower the 3rd class as this is what pushed the Marian reforms, manpower shortage of the warrior classes due to heavy losses against Germans and Numidians. Surely Rome would not have been the only faction to have realized this and made such a reform if other factions were given such prominence. For a few factions this would be unnecessary as they already rely on their 3rd class such as Carthage but for the most part I think it would not only make reforms more interesting but also add immersion to the game and make it more so a world where another faction had risen to power.

[Southern Hunter]

I agree that the Marian reforms should be triggered by shortages in eligible men of the right class. Without that, no need to reform. What it also means is that the 'upgraded' legionaries do not need to be better! As they were not. They were professional, which made them better with experience, but a new legionary under Marian was no better than a new legionary (Hastati) under earlier periods.

[Garbad]

Rome specifically faced manpower shortages because she only used citizens. As attrition (and length/distance of campaigns) rose, it became prudent to switch to a professional army, much as earlier greeks had. But for other cultures without the citizen soldier tradition, this wouldn't have happened. In most tribes, everyone fought already so no reason to have a reform.

[Maetharin]

Actually, most greek mercenaries were poor citizens or exiles.
During the 4th century BC there was a wandering population of unemployed men and their families, selling their services to the highest or fastest bidder, depending on their own situation.
Several Tyrants used the poor citizens of their own City to get to power.
And with constant fighting amongst the poleis, these men often were battlehardened!

That's also why I dislike greek mercenaries with "internal" population classes.
If they were part of the citizenship they'd be eligible for the levy anyway, there'd be no need to buy their services.

The idea of using one's own proletariate as soldiers wasn't new, it's just that in rome the formation of a big enough poor class didn't happen until they already had internal stability and enough economic power to feed them...

At least that's how I interpret it...

Of course there were wars in the italian peninsular, but the romans didn't really supress those whom they conquered until after the second punic war.
So after they became Citizens of Rome or Socii, the subjected people didn't have any reasons to rebel.

Best regards

[Furgon]

What's the point?
Current system already aims to be challenging, but not punishing for the player, it's designed to give you second thought on recruitment every once in a while. Marian reform sure is OP, but as the pivot point in roman military development couldn't be omitted. If one wants another faction to be this OP, he can simply not use PoR at all, especially since it affects only a player.

[Garbad]

TBH I don't think marian is OP. Principes are just as good they just don't have testudo.

[TFCAliarcy]

For me income is still the deciding factor, for example I still don't use Levy Pikemen, I use Kreuchi Pikemen as they have decent armor and morale but are still cheaper than Pikemen, they are in the same class. I never used the elite units often because they cost to much, I use the same army templates that I have always used, PoR has only affected me by making me unable to replenish in some areas and that is only for certain factions.

If I understand correctly armies of this time would have pulled from their semi and wealthy classes and made armies with those men. Rome did this for a while until they had the problem of having to many poor and unemployed people in Rome. Having to large a percentage of 3rd class in my opinion should have public order debuffs if it does not already. Meanwhile Rome was pulling from their dwindling upper classes and were drawing near empty, Gaius Marius put the two together and made it so the the lower class could volunteer for service, to make them able to get good volunteers they were equipped with armor and after service they were given benefits. The Greek states had already begun this by having their armies mostly of non-citizen mercenaries supporting the pikes whether foreign or domestic because their wealthier classes were running out from the constant warring. The Successor states were not undergoing this reform as they were afraid of arming the people that they were oppressing, Carthage had put this to work in their navy. This leaves the barbarians, I am not a professional but if I understand correctly all people were trained to fight to a degree, but only the families of the warrior class made it their profession and were wealthy enough to equip themselves to be able to compete with other warriors.

The Barbarians and successor states are the ones that I think would be effected by having the third class be recruited. The Barbarians, like Rome, would be forced to cope with the issue of having too many people unemployed and poor yet their warriors are running out after constant strife. They would face a reform similar of that to Rome where they begin to have volunteers from their lower classes trained as well as have them more expensive but better equipped to deal with other warriors.

Successor states would be rather simple, probably the only change would be that native units similar to that of the Ptolemaic units such as the Egyptian Pikemen and Hoplites. The Egyptian units however should be locked at the beginning of the game as if I understand correctly the Ptolemaic empire had recruited Greeks, Thracians, and Makedonians from military settlements like the Seleucids did so they should have access to Kraeuchi Pikemen.

Rome is an interesting one, units Rome has access to are Legionnaires, Volunteer Legionnaires, Veteran Legionnaires, First Cohort, Equites, and Javelinmen Legionnaires.
This interesting because the volunteers would have been the 3rd class people whilst the regular Legionnaires would be the 2nd class conscripts that could afford their own equipment. You are correct in that the Marian reform units should be adjusted as they are rather game breaking I think it should be more like this

Legionnaires: Plebs
Volunteer Legionnaires: Proletarii
Veteran Legionnaires: Patricii
First Cohort: Plebs (These are the best new Legionnaires)
Javelin Lehionnaires: Plebs (These are young Legionnaires)
Equites: Patricii

Carthage already struggled with lack of 2nd class warriors in their army and use AoR and mercenaries extensively. For Carthage I think that the idea proposed under the thread "Iberian Assault Infantry" should be their response to lacking a warrior citizen body. In addition I think that Libyan units (excluding Libyan Cavalry and Liby-Phoenician Elite Infantry and Liby-Phoenician Pikemen) should be moved to foreigners, the third class should be Carthaginian Citizen Militia, the naval units, and Libyan Cavalry, they would be the lower class citizens whilst the rest of the recruitment should be fine. Also I noticed that Libyan Hoplites were citizens, but Libyan Infantry, Late Libyan Infantry, and Late Libyan Spearmen were Libyans.

For Greeks I think that Thureos Spears and Light Hoplites should be moved to 3rd class as they are men not wealthy enough to afford equipment and were called upon when the regulars were running out or in haste. Greeks should also have a factional mercenary pool composing of: Thureos Spears, Hoplites, Thracian Warriors, Agrianian Warriors, Thracian Peltasts, Tarantine Cavalry, and Galatian Warriors. Greeks in place of having a Marian reform could have Thureos Spears and Thureos Swords moved to 3rd class and have mercenaries simply be made cheaper to be viable as their cost currently makes them unable to be used in a proper army.

[Southern Hunter]

It is also my impression (I am not a professional historian) that Athens drew its boat crews from the lower classes, allowing it to outcompete other states in Naval affairs.